Evade settings being changed?

todd645 · Post by **todd645** » Mon Sep 05, 2011 8:19 pm

In two multiplayer battles I've fought recently (yesterday and today) I noticed that the settings for my LH were changed to "Do Not Evade." I did not intentionaly change this setting in either battle. It is unusual in that: I do change this setting on purpose for tactical reasons at times (so I know what the setting does) and that this has occured only twice ever - yesterday and today.

Has anyone else seen this? Is there anything I can do to troubleshoot the issue to supply support with better information?

Thanks,

Todd

deeter · Post by **deeter** » Tue Sep 06, 2011 3:09 pm

Did you set them to always evade yourself, or just leave them on default? Did you see a green icon above them, or a red one? On default, they will evade from some enemies but not others.

Deeter

todd645 · Post by **todd645** » Tue Sep 06, 2011 3:24 pm

They started at AI Evade, then became Never Evade.

TheGrayMouser · Post by **TheGrayMouser** » Tue Sep 06, 2011 3:49 pm

todd645 wrote:They started at AI Evade, then became Never Evade.

Not to say your seeing things nor cast doudt on your dexterity, but perhaps they were inadvertantly changed while right clicking on a unit to change facing? I no doudt have done this here or there

todd645 · Post by **todd645** » Tue Sep 06, 2011 4:02 pm

It is possible. I will monitor more closely. It was just weird that it only happened recently and it was 2 games that were going on at the same time.

TheGrayMouser · Post by **TheGrayMouser** » Sun Sep 11, 2011 11:36 pm

Ok, this has now happened to me (which doesnt mean I couldnt be seeing things)

Superior bow /sword cavalry decides NOT to evade from a superior lance knight... The combat odds are abysmal I never touched the evade settings of any of my units prior and I watched the replay and no reason why said unit couldnt evade ( the knight charged pretty much head on) I checked the stance afterwords to make sure and indeed, it was AI evade.

If this is a bug its pretty signifacnt , especially if it only happens sporadically!

Post by **IainMcNeil** » Mon Sep 12, 2011 8:42 am

This is going to be hard to find and fix. It still seems like a good chance it could be accidental changes. If we can get more people reporting it it might help. Is there any pattern to the situation? Are you sure the unit was able to evade?

TheGrayMouser · Post by **TheGrayMouser** » Mon Sep 12, 2011 12:41 pm

iainmcneil wrote:This is going to be hard to find and fix. It still seems like a good chance it could be accidental changes. If we can get more people reporting it it might help. Is there any pattern to the situation? Are you sure the unit was able to evade?

No pattern just noticed and watched the replay and there was no reason the unit in ? couldnt evade. Also, AI default doesnt diplay any "icon" over your unit whereas always and never do so. Since the unit had survided the ist contact i was able to right click to double double check and it was indeed set to AI evade.

Ill see if I can play w the editor and see if I can get it to happen under a controlled environment

FedeM · Post by **FedeM** » Mon Sep 12, 2011 1:06 pm

That happened to me yesterday too playing with the Sejuk Turks. My C-in-C (inspired) was set in AI default and did not evade against a Superior Heavy Armored Lancer.
At least 4 or 5 hexes where behind my unit.

Hopefully he won the impact clash. But then it was disrupted by a lower quality lancer. So in the end this is a bad thing.

This should be checked.

Thanks

batesmotel · Post by **batesmotel** » Mon Sep 12, 2011 1:23 pm

The AI has some fairly complex set of rules it will use when deciding to evade or to stand, especially for non-skirmisher units. As far as I know these have never been explicitly described in the help file or the forum so you are to some degree taking your chances when you leave a BG with the AI evade option set. If you have a specific example that you think is incorrect behavior, the best bet is to post if with a screenshot in a new note and then the developers can possibly indicate if that is the expected behavior or not.

The bottom line is that is you want the maximum in predictability for you BGs, you should explicitly set them for never evade or always evade as the circumstances warrant.

Chris

keithmartinsmith · Post by **keithmartinsmith** » Mon Sep 12, 2011 1:45 pm

If you set a BG to AI evade then the AI will look at the chances of winning, add a degree of randomness and evade accordingly. The AI is deliberately random.

If you set a BG's evade settings then the BG will follow them, but also realise that some BG's can still evade even if you order them to stand depending on a complex move test.

Keith

TheGrayMouser · Post by **TheGrayMouser** » Mon Sep 12, 2011 2:28 pm

keithmartinsmith wrote:If you set a BG to AI evade then the AI will look at the chances of winning, add a degree of randomness and evade accordingly. The AI is deliberately random.

If you set a BG's evade settings then the BG will follow them, but also realise that some BG's can still evade even if you order them to stand depending on a complex move test.

Keith

Ok fair enough, I hadnt realized there was a random element, although in this case my random roll must ahve been pretty bad!

I have played this game enough that I know basic combat odds by unit type and quality alone . So superior bow cavalry with no impact weapon when charged by a superior lance Knight only has 18% to win and what, 42% to lose? The asumption, apprently wrong, is that they would have evaded on AI preferance, being down a complete POA. After all, Superior spear cavalry always appear to evade from superior lancers with the same combat disadvantage.

deeter · Post by **deeter** » Mon Sep 12, 2011 2:58 pm

Just to muddy the waters some more, I've often seen light troops set to always evade not evading when there are no enemy zocs or units in the way, only friendly troops they could pass through. How is this adjudicated?

Deeter

FedeM · Post by **FedeM** » Mon Sep 12, 2011 3:42 pm

If Bow Cavalry expects to win vs Heavy Armored Superior Lancers they must be extra confident....On the post melee he will be at a disadvantage too.

TheGrayMouser · Post by **TheGrayMouser** » Mon Sep 12, 2011 4:05 pm

Fedem wrote:If Bow Cavalry expects to win vs Heavy Armored Superior Lancers they must be extra confident....On the post melee he will be at a disadvantage too.

Yes, his self inflated confidence killed him the next turn

BTW Slith/Hexwar, just how much random is there?

I have always gone on the assumption that AI evade means it will hold if its chance to win the combat is equal or greater than the % to lose, if not it evades. My actual experiance/observations seemed to confirm this.

Also, this is the way it was prior to the new evade settings introduced with Swords and Scimitars came out. AI evade was just the default as all evades prior had bveen handled.

Curious, why the need to introduce this random element ? its not part of the TT (not that that matters)

Post by **IainMcNeil** » Mon Sep 12, 2011 4:27 pm

The level of randomness is one for Keith - no idea on this.

TheGrayMouser · Post by **TheGrayMouser** » Tue Sep 13, 2011 12:08 am

iainmcneil wrote:The level of randomness is one for Keith - no idea on this.

Well maybe Keith can answer this one because I cant figure out this logic

I ran a series of tests in the editor , ran multiple times 10 units vs 10 in three batches

*** all Bg's on both sides were superior*** test subjects all set to AI evade**all tests in nice clear hexes all around***

test one (lance-sword Knights HA vs Armoured BOW Sword cavalry) odds 59-18 % win/loss for the knights
result NEVER , not once did the bow cavalry evade

test two (lance-sword Knights HA vs Armoured Sword cavalry) odds 59-18 % win/loss for the knights
result: cavalry evaded EVERYTIME

test three: (lance-sword Knights HA vs Armoured Light Spear Sword cavalry) odds 59-18 % win/loss for the knights
result: cavalry evaded EVERTIME

Interstingly enough the cavalry units in all three situations would have been DOWN a POA in impact , and DOWN a poa in melee
Why then do the units that have bows in addition to swords think they can fight knights??? The combat odds are exactly the same!

The only thing I can think is that the game engine is mistakenly factoring in "phantom rear support" dice rolls for the bows the cavalry have.

I think this needs a looking at by HEXWAR because A, i dont think this ever happened prior to 1.61, and B , you guys actually did play with the weapons area of the code when you added in "rear rank" missle weapons for some types of mounted units that previously couldnt get missle weapons ( ie the crossbow armed Knights in Eternal Empire)

I suspect something got teaked the wrong way....

Now if you guys want to give rear rank missle SUPPORT fire to bow armed cavalry similar to medium infantry bow troops ( ie 2 xtra dice when recieving a charge) , that is fine by me, will make the mamluks , turks Early Russian lists all that more viable

FedeM · Post by **FedeM** » Tue Sep 13, 2011 2:44 am

TGM and guys. I ran a couple of test with Heavy Armored Lancers charging Bow Cavalry. All Superior. All units set to the default AI evade.
The only time the Bow Cavalry Evades is if the Heavy Armored Lancers are Drilled. If not they stay put.

I repeat the trial almost four times and I got the same results. Weird huh?

Didnt try still if the same happens with Light Spears Cavalry versus Bows.

Tks

TheGrayMouser · Post by **TheGrayMouser** » Tue Sep 13, 2011 3:03 am

Fedem wrote:TGM and guys. I ran a couple of test with Heavy Armored Lancers charging Bow Cavalry. All Superior. All units set to the default AI evade.
The only time the Bow Cavalry Evades is if the Heavy Armored Lancers are Drilled. If not they stay put.

I repeat the trial almost four times and I got the same results. Weird huh?

Didnt try still if the same happens with Light Spears Cavalry versus Bows.

Tks

I concur tried as well
all units superior

Lance sword HA knights drilled vs Armoured Bow Sword cavalry undrilled or drilled the cavalry now evade!

same knights UNDRILLED vs same cavalry whether undrilled or drilled the cavalry never evades.....

to test if its merely whether the knights are drilled or not or whrther bows still are in the equation:
final test

drilled HA knights vs Armoured sword only cavalry (no bows) cavarly evaded!

so, currently it appears that BOW cavalry will NOT evade from a BAD combat if the attacker is drilled! (at least with quality being the same etc as per my above tests)

Good find Fedem, never even considered that drilled could also could be in the mix....

will next have to test non knightly lancers, spear cavalry as well at some point but now bed beckons.

FedeM · Post by **FedeM** » Tue Sep 13, 2011 3:23 am

TGM by saying: "so, currently it appears that BOW cavalry will NOT evade from a BAD combat if the attacker is drilled! (at least with quality being the same etc as per my above tests"

You meant Bow cavalry will NOT evade from a BAD combat if the attacker (Heavy Armored Lancers) is UNDRILLED right? If drilled they get the hell out of there

Cheers.