Change in ZOC rules

gerones · Post by **gerones** » Fri Sep 02, 2011 3:01 pm

I believe that one of the reasons that Morris has crushed the germans in his game against Plaid is because ZOC defensive strategy did not work any more in the Eastern front because of the halved spotting range of air soviet units does not allow the soviet to "see" german defensive line. So soviet advancing units can move into a non spotted 2 enemy units ZOC hex. May be we should change this so an advancing unit that gets a surprise contact that way SHOULD NOT be allowed to also attack the spotted enemy unit. Many other wargames out there do not allow an advancing unit that has spotted an enemy unit by moving into a hex to also attack the spotted enemy unit since the units is performing TWO actions (to spot and to attack) in a single turn.

Any thoughts about this?

JimR · Post by **JimR** » Fri Sep 02, 2011 10:36 pm

Would this solve a general problem with the game, or would it amount to changing a general rule to deal with one specific problem?

Peter Stauffenberg · Post by **Peter Stauffenberg** » Fri Sep 02, 2011 10:59 pm

I think the main problem with ZOC is that you can exploit not being able to spot enemy units. That means you can move further and attack units you couldn't attack if you had spotted the unit.

Ronnie has used this exploit to take Lodz from the rear and that means the city falls easily. The Russians are Germans can do the same to get units in the rear. So one solution could be to target hexes you can move to based upon the location of the units and not the units you can spot. The downside is that you can figure out that a hidden enemy unit is there because you can't move to a hex that you could otherwise move to.

Do you think that's an improvement or should we allow the exploit?

rkr1958 · Post by **rkr1958** » Fri Sep 02, 2011 11:23 pm

Stauffenberg wrote:I think the main problem with ZOC is that you can exploit not being able to spot enemy units. That means you can move further and attack units you couldn't attack if you had spotted the unit.

Ronnie has used this exploit to take Lodz from the rear and that means the city falls easily. The Russians are Germans can do the same to get units in the rear. So one solution could be to target hexes you can move to based upon the location of the units and not the units you can spot. The downside is that you can figure out that a hidden enemy unit is there because you can't move to a hex that you could otherwise move to.

Do you think that's an improvement or should we allow the exploit?

Borger, I think what Victor is suggesting is that if a unit that moves and uncovers an unspotted enemy unit cannot attack that unit. It could only attack units that were spotted before it starting moving. I don't think we would need to change how units move or how zoc's work just that a unit that moves can only attack units that were spotted before the move. Personally, if this is straight forward to implement I would be all for it. I think this would make air reconnaissance more important (i.e., moving air unit forward to better spot the enemy) before moving ground units especially when the previous turn was poor weather and the current turn is fair.

This would also make a 1-turn conquest of Poland much harder.

richardsd · Post by **richardsd** » Sat Sep 03, 2011 3:05 am

that would have significant effects on sub vs convoy warfare

rkr1958 · Post by **rkr1958** » Sat Sep 03, 2011 3:10 am

richardsd wrote:that would have significant effects on sub vs convoy warfare

It would have some but how significant I don't know. I usually hunt in packs of 3 and use 1 to scout and the other two to attack. Sometimes the scout is able to move adjacent and attack. The danger with that strategy is that it could just as well be moving "into" a hornet's nest of escorts. So, I usually use my scout to move two or so hexes away from the suspected convoy location and then the other two sub flotillas move in.

gerones · Post by **gerones** » Sat Sep 03, 2011 12:06 pm

I believe that to change this would be an improvement. It is based in a common rule in wargames which does not allow a unit to spot and attack the enemy units in the same turn. So it would add little bit more realism to the game rules but also, as Ronnie has pointed, it would increase the importance of air reconnaissance. Main consequences (with no effects at all in game balance) would be that the soviets wont´be able (in severe winter weather) to badly overrun an axis ZOC defensive line causing a disaster in the very first year of Barbarossa as we have seen in Plaid vs Morris AAR. Effects on Case white would be also minimal since the germans, with the new change in Low Countries surrender, will no longer have to be in a hurry for taking Holland in 1939.

Peter Stauffenberg · Post by **Peter Stauffenberg** » Sat Sep 03, 2011 12:34 pm

The problem is that this logic is used for ALL units, including naval units. E. g. it means that subs can't attack convoys that moved outside it's spotting range. It means you need to see the unit at the start of the move to attack it. Other naval units can't attack if they e. g. move to a coastal city to perform shore bombardment etc.

I'm not sure if that's a good idea.

I agree that you should NOT have hidden units influence naval movement, but it could influence land movement. That would take away the exploit where you can actually move through enemy ZOC to get to an empty hex behind the units simply because you didn't see the ZOC before you started moving. The armor attack on Lodz behind the Warta is one example.

So maybe we could allow hidden ground units to exert ZOC before land movement is performed. This can be exploited less because you can't move adjacent to the unit since extra ZOC makes it impossible. It's only when e. g. armor units can move much deeper into the territory and see that it can't that you can analyze and guess where the hidden unit is. Then you can move adjacent to it and attack it.

There is already code that means you can't attack if you try to move into a hidden enemy occupied ground unit. Then you stop adjacent to the unit and can't attack.

I think we need to have some kind of rule to not reward players from moving into unspotted territory to push deeper than they could if the enemy hexes had been spotted.

Another solution could be to add +1 MP into hexes you can't spot. That means you really need air units to move closer to the front line to spot ahead for you.
Since you spot around a unit after each attack/move you will be able to see deeper so other units can move further. Such a change will mainly be used when e. g. one side retreats the entire front line and the other side can't see the units anymore. Then you can't move into the concealed hexes as easily. You would need to spot in order to not get MP penalty when moving there.

If we add such a rule we could e. g. allow air units to fly spotting missions within range. This can be done when we highlight hexes around the unit. Empty enemy controlled hexes can get a spot symbol in the hex. That means if you click on the hex the air unit will be flagged as has moved and a spotaroundhex will be performed so you can see everything around this hex within the air unit's spotting range. To not make this too powerful we could use half the air unit's spotting range when flying this mission, but never below 2 hexes.

This way you can use e. g. Axis minor air units to spot for you instead of using the unit to attack something it won't hit well. We can also do is that let air units attacking perform a spotaroundhex similar to the reconnaisance mission.

Air units fly spotting missions (i. e. attacking empty hexes) could use up e. g. a fixed amount of half the oil consumption rounded down. If you discover a unit in the hex from spotting then you will not attack it. You will only reveal it. The reason is that air units on recon missions would not carry bombs.

Adding such a rule could make it more lucrative to use strategic bombers. You can use them for spotting with just 2 oil consumption per mission to reveal enemy locations deep into the enemy territory.

I think such a chance is the most historical one and will mean the air units will be useful as recon units as well.

rkr1958 · Post by **rkr1958** » Sat Sep 03, 2011 1:29 pm

Borger,

Of your two proposals related to ground units: (1) allowing hidden units to excerpt a zoc or (2) adding +1 MP for movement into unspotted hexes I prefer the first. Both will address the exploit Victor and you have brought up but in my opinion, (1) would have the least impact on the game as it is now. Though (1) would reveal information before moving I think we can view this as limited intelligence gained from ground recon patrols from that unit.

If we go with (2) I agree that we will need the air recon functionality that you proposed. And, maybe that's good to have for either option. I'm ok either way.

Borger wrote:It means you need to see the unit at the start of the move to attack it.

Getting back to my original proposal I agree to limiting this to land units is probably best. And, my proposal was that A unit couldn't attack any unspotted enemy units before moving. It's move could reveal enemy units that other ground and air units could now attack.

Peter Stauffenberg · Post by **Peter Stauffenberg** » Sat Sep 03, 2011 1:49 pm

Please look at the other thread I made where you can vote. Let's enter there and make your vote.

rkr1958 · Post by **rkr1958** » Sat Sep 03, 2011 1:53 pm

Stauffenberg wrote:Please look at the other thread I made where you can vote. Let's enter there and make your vote.

Ah ... I will ... I missed that one ... just having my first cup of coffee.