Testing continues as valentines day 2008 approaches fast!

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shall
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Testing continues as valentines day 2008 approaches fast!

Post by shall »

Just a general comment now on the rule status and ahuge thank you to veryone hwo has helped us so much thus far....we are still standing entering the stadium after quite a Marathon and feel confident of reaching the tape with enough energy left to get to the nearest bar!

Early on in testing we found lots of points where people agree 80/90/100% on a need for change, and this is what we needed most. We are now finding that most points have a balance or close to it between testers and authors. At that point one has to take a view and go with it for vs 1.

Also in terms of timetable, we are relieved to have reached such a psoition. Feb 14th 2008 may seem a long way away - I bet most of you haven't even bought that valentines present yet - but in the land of major book publishing the whole thing is sealed and wrapped many months ahead. The date is not far away in fact.

In a way what would be most interesting is on a 1 to 10 scale now how happy would we all be to play FOG laterst as our main ruleset?

Views?

Go on, be brave - buy her FOG for valentines day 2008 !!!:-) :wink: :twisted:

Si
malekithau
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Post by malekithau »

As it stands FOG is a better game then anything I've played for ancients. There are still some areas that need ironing out so as it stands I'd play it but would be expecting an awfully large errata to follow IF it was published now. Mind you we can get answers quickly with the net unlike the days of 7th and "I called Phil last night" with 20 pages of clarifications to be read before each tourney.

I am still interested to know how historical refights are being handled. Are there realistic results?

All in all I am enjoying testing the rules - most of the time I find someone else has already asked about anything I discover but otherwise it's been fun.

The big thing for me is that it's got me back to my first wargaming love - ancients. So far I have 2 brand new 500 point armies and looking forward to expanding them.

Forgot the rating - 7.5 currently. I think the constant (necessary) changes make it harder to enjoy.

John
Last edited by malekithau on Wed May 23, 2007 10:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
shall
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Post by shall »

I am still interested to know how historical refights are being handled. Are there realistic results?
For what it is worth, I have tried 3 refights in amongst the games - all worked very well and felt very realistic. They were:

Granikos
Hydaspes
Manzikert

Si
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Post by petedalby »

Good to have a date in the sand Simon.

To answer your 1 to 10 question I'd rate it a 7 at the moment.

I have enjoyed the testing and it's great to see that you have listened to many concerns and suggestions. I still have reservations about HF getting into the game - especially in competitions, and there are some other bits and pieces which don't float my boat but overall it plays fairly well. I'm looking forward to FoG at Britcon.

When is the last date before you have to decide on a final version? Will Britcon influence them or not?

Pete
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Post by marshalney2000 »

I continue to enjoy the rules and even more so after a lapse back into dbm 3.1 for a few competition games.
Historically wise I still wonder about Cannae where Hannibals sucess was due to the gradual pushing back of the Gallic infantry and the subsequent flank envelopment. Will not die in a ditch about it though and intend to play FOG at Britcon this year.
8 out of 10 for me.
John
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Post by markm »

Most fun I've had playing Ancients - ever.

I can see very few weaknesses, but will be paying special attention to charge/flee/evade sequence over the next week or so, as that always seems to be a problem area in other rules I've played.

I'd give it 8/10 for now. The only reason it's not higher is that I still find the language less than easy to follow at times. It may need to be this way to be concise?!
garyb
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Re: Testing continues as valentines day 2008 approaches fast

Post by garyb »

shall wrote:In a way what would be most interesting is on a 1 to 10 scale now how happy would we all be to play FOG laterst as our main ruleset?
Can I be a rare negative overall opinion here (sorry :( )?

As it stands, I'd have to answer that question with a "not very", so 2 or 3? Ultimately I'll go where the competition is as it's the competitive game side that is the appeal for me.

I appreciate I've not posted lots so I'm not trying to be unfair, just responding to the question, and will be posting up my thoughts to date (over the dozen or so games I've had now).

The overall impression the game leaves me with (after the initial joy of a new learning experience) is that it's a grind, the whole ethos seems to be to grind down my opponents cohesion level and that grind just seems to drag.

Ironically I've been enjoying DBM more since I started playing FoG, it just feels more dynamic and elegant. I was quite looking forward to a change from DBM but FoG hasn't pushed the happy buttons at all.

I looked at the table at one point during tonights game and it was littered with counters for units at various stages of cohesion and stacks of dice keeping track of how many hits had been inflicted by units during the previous melee. It looked like an awful cluttered mess, no nice way of saying it, I never played 6th / 7th edition so I've probably been conditioned by the style of DBM but FoG currently makes me think of all the times I've walked past napoleonic tables with more accessories (counters, hoops, whatever) than soldiers and thought "thank god it's not me playing that".

Anyway, sorry for the negative comments, I'll post up specific issues as seperate threads.

Cheers,
Gary
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Post by paulcummins »

at the moment - 5 or 6

in terms of rating the rules id be more like 7, but like Gary - Im most into what ever becomes the default comp ruleset, and will probably end up playing that what ever it is.

I also agree with pretty much all his comments - except the conclusion

Unlike Gary I actually really like FOG, and would probably swing that way in preference to DBMMMM.

As I read Gary's post, and when I spoke to him last week all the points he makes pick up on my own concerns. Then I think about the mechanics and it is a brill game again.

looking back at Campaign the other week - I had my Early Russian against Anglo Dane in 4 out of 5 games. It was hard work to extract a draw from that match up (cv and lh vs spear, spear, more spear and some blades). Thinking about how it would have panned out in FOG - skirmishers shoot up spear, lancers heroically charge in. as opposed to Cv hang around 3 inches infront of the spear line and pray for the flank march to turn up.

I wonder if the loss of big epic game feeling is due more to unfamiliarity than any inate problem with the rules.

For me the game breaks down when I have individual units charging of hither and yon after retreating / avoiding (not broken) units. Once I am in this state the game becomes a bit dull as neither side can really make any progress in the situation.
On the other hand an experienced opponent would then crush my seperated units like bugs.

I think I had this problem when I first started DBM - trying to attack units rather than attack the army, leads to a messy and quite frustrating game.

So based on all that waffle - I think I ll go to Roll Call and play FOG please :)

just need some new lists...
hammy
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Post by hammy »

OK here is my take so far:

Presentation and language 9/10

Historical plausability 9/10

Luck / Skill ballance - I am not so sure

My ability to play the game well 3/10

I think that the mchanics make sense and the game plays well. I spend a long time after each game thinking things through but so far the game has yet to click. It took 4 or 5 years for DBM to click for me and now I can play DBM almost on auto pilot. The same cannot be said for FoG

I have had a few games where an unlikely sequence of events has cost me a win or even caused me to lose. One where my Roman euites were beaten in a straight up fight by Sassanid peasant levy and one where my Ghazi foot were beaten by Agrianians. Both were long odds occurences which is fine but when you lose a 98% certain possition it is very hard to recover it. I suspect this is probably what is making people feel there is more luck than DBM. I am not sure there is more luck but I think there is perhaps more "critical luck". I need to adapt my style of play and try to remedy this critical luck problem.

I definitley prefer FoG to DBMM simply because DBMM is more full of holes than a string vest. But there is still something I can't put my finger on that means overall I have to rate FoG no better than 6 or 7 out of 10. Most of that rating is I think from my inability to play well rather than the rules.

Hammy
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Post by jre »

Fun game: 8.

Competition game: 6 (if I really cared about winning).

As others, I feel luck plays a big role. It is not important when playing for fun. It may even help getting opponents. But it is a serious problem in a competitive environment such as a tournament, to keep the top players playing the rules. As I mentioned, last week-end I lost to someone who had no idea of the rules but knew what he wanted to do, and had a bit of luck. That would never have happened with DBM.

Maybe too many disagreements with some changes, which is why it stays at 8, it is still the only miniature rules I will play.

Jose
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Post by jdm »

Thanks for the feedback guys. Keep it coming especially views and comment on the rules themself.

We are heading towards a version we are reasonably happy with but still a ways to go.

As you know we intend running some beta tournaments, to lock down a number of points and see how they perform at competition level. As ever your views welcome during this process.

Regards
JDM
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Post by dave_r »

If you want marks out of ten I would give FOG an 8.

For some reason which I haven't been able to put my finger on I actually really enjoy playing a game of FOG. I think this may be because I am always active when playing. One of the main problems I have with DBM is the "downtime" when my opponent is thinking. There seems to be less of this waiting doing nothing within FOG, I found the same with Flames of War which hugely adds to the fun.

I don't ascribe to the theory that there is more luck involved as I think that people are used to micro managing within DBM and FOG is more about overall strategy than one BG beating another BG luckily.

The areas of concern are twofold. I enjoy planning an army, thinking about how I am going to use it what tactics I am going to use etc. There seems to be less of this planning with FOG than with other rule sets. I therefore find I rarely look forward to playing a game, but once I start I find it very enjoyable. This is in complete contrast to DBMM whereby I think the planning aspects are almost unlimited, but my enthusiasm wanes when I actually play the game.

Secondly I am not sure about the longevity of the rules. Because DBM was so complex then it has lasted longer than any other version of ancient rules that I know about. With the lack of complexity of FOG then I doubt that it will be around for the 15 years or so that DBM was. I suspect (I hope I am wrong) that the rules may not last as long.

Overall thumbs up
madaxeman
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Post by madaxeman »

I'm liking it - but probably more because its "new" than "woweee!". Looking forward to getting in a few games at Britcon to test this theory

I think I will soon be getting to the stage of "knowing what I am doing, and doing it deliberatley to try and win" rather than "shoving figures around in a vaguely historical way and seeing what happens".

My nagging doubt is still the lack of a command and control system to move the troops around. I'm also happier now it has an acronym that I can refer to it as "Flames of Glory" !!

Maybe I'm waiting for the inevitable post-release someones-house-mod of "Pips for FOG" :twisted:
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Post by davidandlynda »

My feelings are along the lines of Dave Ruddock,I like it ,just a nagging feeling at the back of my mind " is it to simple",probably because we are used to DBx. The big plus is no PIP dice something I have always hated .
I think the "untidiness " quoted by other posters is something we will clean up in time and come up we more elegant ways of doing things,I remember towards the end of 7th someone came up with a set of counters with shaken etc printed on them.
Keeping a check on all the various combats/POA's is a headache,I'll be interested to see how everone is coping in game 4 at Britcon(I'm staying DBM for the time being,I want to play Dublin and Helsinki ,but I can go both ways)
David
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Post by petedalby »

I looked at the table at one point during tonights game and it was littered with counters for units at various stages of cohesion and stacks of dice keeping track of how many hits had been inflicted by units during the previous melee.
We've managed to avoid this so far and have stuck with turning bases around etc as per the rules to denote Disr or Frag. It looks better but I can understand that in complex melees things can start to get confused.

Pete
shall
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Post by shall »

As JD said..keep it coming guys...........all really helpful as we enter the arena at the end of the marathon and hammer out those final changes.

Looking forward to Britcon very much - even though I will be umpiring/organising rather than playing

Si
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Post by marshalney2000 »

I must confess that I am not a lover of clutter on a table either but if nicely presented counters ala flame sof war are produced commercially then this can enhance rather than detract from the game. From a spectator point of view it can also make the game more interesting and allows a clearer understanding of what is happening in the action.
shall
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Post by shall »

I fully expect to have counters that will look very nice and not detract from the game ... probably as accesories rather than within the rulebook.

It will get sorted once the team move through the Osprey deadlines. All ideas and thoughts welcome.

So those who use counters can have nice ones.....and those who like using the base method can stick with that.

Si
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Post by lawrenceg »

I made some counters, and with hindsight realised that the DISRUPTED should be on the back of the FRAGMENTED so you can just flip it over when they drop or recover.

I do use BROKEN counters, but it's usually easy to remember which BGs are in rout and which just happen to be facing the rear. Indicating BROKEN by dislocating the bases is less problematic than the other two levels because it can't get confused with fighting in 2 directions, orb formation, or the consequences of stepping forward. However, when BGs are off table I have found it useful to flag which were broken and which evaded off unbroken.

I've noticed people use different colour codes. I use
RED = BROKEN
ORANGE = FRAGMENTED
YELLOW = DISRUPTED
GREEN would be for STEADY, but you don't need a counter for that.
I also have the word printed on the counter to avoid any possible confusion.

Doubtless resourceful players will make up bases with abandoned shields, shattered lances, cast down standards etc to use instead of counters.

It did occur to me to provide each BG with 2 or 3 single command (officer/standard/musician) figures, which get removed or replaced as the cohesion states change, but I haven't got around to it yet. Could use crew or escort figures for Artillery and Elephant BGs.
Lawrence Greaves
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Post by nicofig »

You could see with Gale Force Nine : http://www.gf9.com/ . They made some beautifull counter for FoW or Warmachine for examples. :D
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