Base Removal

viperofmilan · Post by **viperofmilan** » Mon Aug 15, 2011 7:56 pm

I've got an issue that I didn't realize was in dispute until my opponent brought it up this past weekend. All other things being equal (i.e. BG not subject to long range artillery fire), when 2 6-base pike and shot BGs are lined up blasting away and 1 is required to lose a base, is the selection of which base to remove subject to the proportional loss rule or is it the free choice of the affected player?

I always had played it by the former (i.e., the first lost base would be a shooter under the provisions of the proportional loss rule), but apparently there is a section of the hobby that insists on the latter (i.e., they want to be able to lose a pike and retain all 4 shooters, for obvious reasons).

I'm interested in how everyone else plays this. I bellieve that the rules are crystal clear that the proportional loss rule always applies, with the sole exception of long-range artillery fire.

Kevin

Blathergut · Post by **Blathergut** » Mon Aug 15, 2011 8:34 pm

p. 151, top of the right-hand column:

"Where there is a choice...After the first base loss to a battle group, base losses...must always be taken in proportion..."

First is choice. Then you follow the proportional rule.

ravenflight · Post by **ravenflight** » Mon Aug 15, 2011 9:29 pm

Blathergut wrote:p. 151, top of the right-hand column:

"Where there is a choice...After the first base loss to a battle group, base losses...must always be taken in proportion..."

First is choice. Then you follow the proportional rule.

Is that per turn, or over the scope of the game?

I.E. Does the first loss come from the pike, then next turn the first loss can come from the pike the. The next turn, the first loss can come from the pike etc etc.

Simpleton · Post by **Simpleton** » Mon Aug 15, 2011 9:51 pm

ravenflight wrote:
Blathergut wrote:p. 151, top of the right-hand column:

"Where there is a choice...After the first base loss to a battle group, base losses...must always be taken in proportion..."

First is choice. Then you follow the proportional rule.
Is that per turn, or over the scope of the game?

I.E. Does the first loss come from the pike, then next turn the first loss can come from the pike the. The next turn, the first loss can come from the pike etc etc.

In your example the answer is no unless the target is a Swedish Brigade.

p151 has many rules points. In Kevin's example the two units first obey the dot for "Other Shooting" since they are not long range artillery. the nearest base obeying proportional loss. When you remove bases unless specified by one of the other considerations, the first base removed is one which preserves as much as possible the original mix of base types in a mixed unit. So a standard 4 shot 2 pike regiment (2:1 ratio) would lose a shot (3:2); then a choice as 3:1 or 1:1 are equally not proportional. If you took the pike the next two loss would be shot and vice versa.

Units take losses from various kinds of combat so the proportions may be in flux, but you try to keep the original balance except in the speical cases.

Blathergut · Post by **Blathergut** » Mon Aug 15, 2011 10:52 pm

ravenflight wrote:
Blathergut wrote:p. 151, top of the right-hand column:

"Where there is a choice...After the first base loss to a battle group, base losses...must always be taken in proportion..."

First is choice. Then you follow the proportional rule.
Is that per turn, or over the scope of the game?

I.E. Does the first loss come from the pike, then next turn the first loss can come from the pike the. The next turn, the first loss can come from the pike etc etc.

This would be for each BG, as the game progresses. The first base loss is your choice. Then the proportional rule kicks in.

viperofmilan · Post by **viperofmilan** » Tue Aug 16, 2011 4:19 pm

p. 151, top of the right-hand column:

"Where there is a choice...After the first base loss to a battle group, base losses...must always be taken in proportion..."

First is choice. Then you follow the proportional rule.

But read the sentence before the bolded "proportional loss rule" and I think you'll see that your interpretation is questionable. It says pretty clearly that whenever there is a choice on base removal the proportional loss rule applies.

kevin

Blathergut · Post by **Blathergut** » Tue Aug 16, 2011 6:11 pm

And the proportional loss rules includes "after the first."

deadtorius · Post by **deadtorius** » Thu Aug 18, 2011 2:22 am

I believe for arty it has to be a pike first, they make you take it out of the most dense troop type, and makes it simple for the over taxed brain. Next time its a shot to keep the proportional rule going.

Other shooting is I believe closest to the shooters or your choice, we usually always lose the pike first, keeps the fire power up. Then its shot and shot (6 base pike ans shot units in this example) and auto break hits and its all irrelevant anyway as the unit is removed at the end of the joint action phase, really makes it easy then

jefritrout · Post by **jefritrout** » Thu Aug 18, 2011 4:55 am

I'm still not convinced either way. I read the relevant section about 3 times now, and I think I lean toward the Vipers interpretation, but still could be convinced the other way.

kadeshuk · Post by **kadeshuk** » Thu Aug 18, 2011 9:49 am

This one was quite well covered a while ago. Sometimes your first caualty has to be the nearest to the shooters. Looking back through the old posts should cover it for you.

Blathergut · Post by **Blathergut** » Thu Aug 18, 2011 11:10 am

I do stand corrected. Too many rules sets in this olde brain!

http://slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=22052

viewtopic.php?t=20484

Somehow we've let the 'or your choice' slip in. Or...we do usually have or BGs fairly lined up so a pike could come off.

Apologies for adding to the confusion.