Allied Italian Gambit

[Kuz]

I’m in the April turn of 1940 when my opponent pulled this tactic on me. So I don’t know the total ramifications yet but it could potentially be a problem for play balance and it is a purely ahistorical move.
Situation is as follows;
German’s sitzkreig until the first good weather turn of 1940 which occurred in April then DOW on Belgium taking Brussels as normal.
Allies then declare war on Italy and immediately invade the Italian Fortress hex north of Naples and the one on the Adriatic coast. He did this with French GAR. In the same turn he blockaded Tobruk and Benghazi and most crucially he took Tripoli attacking from Tunis with combined Anglo-French armies.
The timing of this was about as perfect as you’d want with the Germans in the middle of the French campaign. Additionally, they really can’t do a thing about it for at least a turn or two as it will take at least that long to move air assets into the area. As far as the Italian response, there is again nothing they can do immediately. As far as I can tell there is no real effective response to this.
The allied player accepted the consequences of the move both with regard to the convoy reduction as he saw this as temporary and the U.S. reduction as an acceptable trade with knocking the Italians out of NA. Also this operation cost him very little in the way of British PP’s and he calculated that by the time I finished France he’d be able to put up a respectable line in England to make Sea Lion as costly as possible.
How the Axis responds to this is a matter of debate and conjecture. However, my question is should the Allies be able to conduct such an operation at all?

[rkr1958]

However, my question is should the Allies be able to conduct such an operation at all?

I would, in my opinion, say no. I would vote for a change, if possible, along the lines that if the allies DOW Italy then the only way Italy can be conquered is for Rome to be captured. That is, the three capture cities only apply if the Italians activate on their own.

[zechi]

I really do not see any significant advantage from this gambit. If I understand the strategy correctly, the Allied player captured Tobruk and blocked the ports of Benghazi and Tobruk, i.e. trapped the Italian forces in Libya.

What kind of force did he use to capture Tripoli?

This seems from my point of view a costly strategy for little gain and the Allied player should get problems in the defense of France if he brings in combat units to Tunisia to strike early at Tripoli. France should fall easier with such a commitment to North Africa.

The only thing which should be a problem is the landings in Italy to disable the Gustav line. This should not be possible, as the Gustav line did not really existed at this stage of the war.

I also do not think that this strategy is unhistorical. If the French and British would have sent forces to North Africa to attack Tripoli from Tunisia, they would most likely be succesful and Italy would be hard pressed to do anything against it. Of course these forces would be missing in France and therefore France would fall even easier.

The obvious bes result for the Allied player will be that he captures Libya early. The Axis will then ignore North Africa and prepare defenses in Sicily and mainland Italy early on. The Allied player will then have a hard time to attack Italy before the US enters the war, i.e. not before 1942. I think this is not a problem as this is the same result if the Axis player chooses not to reinforce North Africa (which is a viable strategy from my point of view). Then the British will capture Libya early in 1942 and either launch Torch after entry of war of the US or go directly for Italy after the US enters the war.

[Peter Stauffenberg]

One thing we could do was to only activate the Gustav line in July 1943 or when an Allied unit has landed in a core Italian hex. This is similar to the German eastern fortresses and Atlantic wall fortresses. This way you can't destroy the fortresses by suicide French invasions.

If Britain sends several units to Tunisia to take Tripoli then I would say let them do it. That makes Sealion easier to do.

So the only problem I see with this strategy is that the Allies can destroy part of the Gustav line prematurely.

[Kuz]

He captured Tripoli on the intial attack coming out of Tunisia. He attacked with british mech, corps and French Mech supported by a British Fighter. Sea Bombardment with French Fleet. He blockaded Tobruk and Benghazi with the British Fleet.

Yes France fell a turn or two early I don't recall exactly. It was late May or first part of June. The problem IMO is not so much the defense of France but the defense of England. Anyway thats not my point. I don't think the allies would have done a move like this and I don't think they were particularly capable of this type of operation. I use Norway as an example.

Its unhistorical if they didn't do it historically

The Gustov line attack is an issue but I think easily resolved maybe having it appear in 1942 or early 1943 same as the Atlantic wall fortresses or even putting a GAR in those two fortress hexes at start.

With this tactic the allies capture Libya in 1940 not 42. I hate speculation because there are to many things that can happen in a game. But I think the danger to Italy is more serious than what you suggest. But again my point is not so much the validity of the attack as could it have happened at all?

[zechi]

He captured Tripoli on the intial attack coming out of Tunisia. He attacked with british mech, corps and French Mech supported by a British Fighter. Sea Bombardment with French Fleet. He blockaded Tobruk and Benghazi with the British Fleet.

Yes France fell a turn or two early I don't recall exactly. It was late May or first part of June. The problem IMO is not so much the defense of France but the defense of England. Anyway thats not my point. I don't think the allies would have done a move like this and I don't think they were particularly capable of this type of operation. I use Norway as an example.

Its unhistorical if they didn't do it historically

The Gustov line attack is an issue but I think easily resolved maybe having it appear in 1942 or early 1943 same as the Atlantic wall fortresses or even putting a GAR in those two fortress hexes at start.

With this tactic the allies capture Libya in 1940 not 42. I hate speculation because there are to many things that can happen in a game. But I think the danger to Italy is more serious than what you suggest. But again my point is not so much the validity of the attack as could it have happened at all?

If the Allied player sents such a big force from Europe to North Africa at this stage of the game I do no think that this "unhistorical". The French and British had these forces in France and Britain and could have sent them to North Africa if they wanted. I'm not 100 % sure if the British and French had the naval assets to do it in 1940, but I think they both had quite a naval transport capacity, especially the British as a traditional naval power. I also do not have a problem that the Allied player captures Libya in 1940 or early 1941. This can happen in any game in which the Axis player does not invest in North Africa and if the Allied player attacks early, which is from my point of view a common strategy.

[SgtSteve]

Greetings...

Im am the Allied player that led the raid on the Italian held port of Tripoli in April of 40'. I could have conducted the operation earlier, but wanted the shortest time possible between the capture of Tripoli and the scripted activation of Egypt. This tactic only requires 2 battleships for shore bombardment, 2 fighters (one can be CV), 1 French Mech, 1 Brit Mech and 1 Inf Corp (any nationality). I have the Inf invade and attack from the east, and the two mech attack out Tunis by land. This is a one turn capture with plenty of overkill as not to get a bad result on capture. In addition I use the 2 french garrisons in Africa to destroy the fortress hexes on the coast in Southern Italy. This isnt a waste of units or money as you can spend the french into a negative money balance, as you will loose there entire economy in a turn or two anyway. And the two french garrisons would be lost just setting idle in African ports when France surrenders anyway.
This tactic will bait the German into Sealion "Hopefully", which is a trap. The British save their money and hope the Germans invade England. At which time you dump your economy into Garrisons and fill Britain with enough units to make the Germans pay out the nose for Sealion. England is less important as an Allied airbase as it is a Nice Ripe Fruit that you need to make look enticing for the German player to pick. With the strategy being...bleed the Germans in the west, and have the Russians deliver the killing blow. Defeating the Germans is a death of a thousand cuts from the West. The East is the Anvil.

D

[Peter Stauffenberg]

GS v2.01 will be changed with the following:
• Removed the Gustav Line fortresses in Italy from all scenarios except the 1944.scenario
• Added code that will remove the fortresses in ongoing games that haven’t reached July 1943 or had Allied units in Italy
• Spawn the Gustav Line fortresses if:
- Year is 1942 or later and an Allied unit has landed in a core Italian hex
- Turn is July 1943 or later
• A message about the spawn will be shown
• The Gustav Line fortresses can be set in general.txt

This means the Allies can certainly grab Libya early, but they can't destroy any Gustav Line fortresses since there are none to destroy. These fortresses appear later in the game and then France is probably conquered.

I think the game show allow for the Allies to create nuisance for the Axis like going after Italy. Germany can quickly save mainland Italy and probably also Sicily. France will fall early due to having units in Tunisia and that means the Germans can more easily go after Sealion or reject the armistice offer to take North Africa and get Spain on their side.

The French might be knocked out quickly since Paris falls early and that means Britain will fight alone in Libya. OK, they have a slightly better start position, but if the Germans can send some decent units there then the British will have problems surviving there.

But a clever Allied player might get away with taking Libya early and put extra pressure upon the Axis. So it could be the Italian gambit can be useful against some opponents.