bagration

[stecal]

Any ideas how to survive this? By turn 3 1/3 of my force is destroyed & I surrender. IS2 & T34/85 are just tearing up my Panthers & Tigers. I see no reason to play the game any further if this is how the last scenarios go. Too depressing to watch all your experience units wrecked.

[Vaughn]

I know the feeling. I had a save point at Moscow 43 and played Bagration with the same army I ran easily across America with. I won - but I lost nearly half of my very experienced and well-equipped core forces.

It is a very powerful army coming at you and your defensive position really sucks. There is nowhere to dig in and make a stand. It is going to hurt bad.

[MarsRobert]

Thanks for the warning man. In my first campaign, after Kursk I picked Italy over Bagration. I know the Bagration scenario must be tough because, after all, another name for that fight was 'The Destruction of Army Group Center". Yikes!

The bane of my existence in my first campaign was Overlord. After winning a magnificent decisive victory in Italy, almost my entire army was destroyed in Overlord.

BTW, I sympathize completely. It is indeed quite depressing to see your magnificent army built up painstakingly over many battles get trashed in the latter scenarios. Sighs.

[yoky]

The same topic is discussed in this thread: viewtopic.php?t=26347&highlight=bagration

I'm also stacked in Bagration and I'm losing my enthusiasm for continuing this particular campaign after two tries at least to survive with several core units.
I know that Bagration war episode was devastating for Germans in history but I see two "BUTs" in Panzer Corps game related to this defense scenario. I play the East (1941-45) campaign on Colonel level:
1) Trying to be more historicaly precise, there are too many IS2 tanks in Bagration scenario. I suggest to swap them with variety of T34 at least,
2) Panzer Corps is still just a game. Nobody is enjoying the game seeing devastating all what he has been building during several sleepless past nights I like challenges, no easy victory but this is extreme example how to discourage people from playnig the game.

Please, Panzer Corps mission designers, could you hear my cry?

BTW: I have tried to defense on Berezina river and also to run away to west with identical result - total annihilation of my core units. Any other suggestions, please?

[billmv44]

I've won Bagration playing at both Colonel and General. You absolutely need Tiger IIs to stop the Russians. I placed 6 of them shoulder to shoulder from Vitebsk to Orsha and then spaced the rest of my tanks behind the Dnieper river. I always build a tank heavy force (the game is Panzer Corps after all). I think I had at least 13 tank units. I backed them with artillery and infantry to seal off any units that get across the Dnieper. My four fighters and two fighter bombers slowly wore down the red air force. I made sure to crush any units that entered a river hex. I couldn't let them get behind me since I had no reserves. If they cracked my line, I was done for. I put my more experienced units (Knight's Cross holders all) in the most critical positions and filled the gaps with the less experienced units. The end result both times was all Soviet units destroyed and me in possession of Smolensk.

[ijontichy]

I've won Bagration playing at both Colonel and General. You absolutely need Tiger IIs to stop the Russians. I placed 6 of them shoulder to shoulder from Vitebsk to Orsha and then spaced the rest of my tanks behind the Dnieper river. I always build a tank heavy force (the game is Panzer Corps after all). I think I had at least 13 tank units.

Yes, this is why the standalone scenario is effectively busted. There is no way you can buy 6 Tiger II's, or have 13 tanks unless you're playing the scenario as part of a campaign. Playing it outside of a campaign you have to be a master at this game to even entertain visions of a victory. And if the master is lucky, then sometimes he will win. The rest of us will lose all the time. Historically accurate I suppose.

I certainly agree with those who say that there are too many IS-2's in Bagration. But comparing it to PG's Byelorussia scenario, I find the biggest gameplay difference is that in Panzer Corps, one attack by an IS-2 followed by another attack by an IS-2 can dislodge or destroy a German infantry in a city (no artillery or bomber softening up required). In PG's Byelorussia, it used to take the AI several turns to dislodge front line German infantry in cities.

To fix the standalone scenario, I would convert a few IS-2's to T34's, give the German's a couple of Tiger II's to start off with, and give the infantry much higher entrenchment values in the cities.

[MarsRobert]

I've won Bagration playing at both Colonel and General. You absolutely need Tiger IIs to stop the Russians. I placed 6 of them shoulder to shoulder from Vitebsk to Orsha and then spaced the rest of my tanks behind the Dnieper river. I always build a tank heavy force (the game is Panzer Corps after all). I think I had at least 13 tank units. I backed them with artillery and infantry to seal off any units that get across the Dnieper. My four fighters and two fighter bombers slowly wore down the red air force. I made sure to crush any units that entered a river hex. I couldn't let them get behind me since I had no reserves. If they cracked my line, I was done for. I put my more experienced units (Knight's Cross holders all) in the most critical positions and filled the gaps with the less experienced units. The end result both times was all Soviet units destroyed and me in possession of Smolensk.

So you need six Tiger IIs in your force by early 1944 in order to handle the Bagration battle???? Wow! I'm lucky if I have two by this time. Just like Alice in Wonderland, I'll need to believe six impossible things before breakfast."

But seriously, I begin to think that if you don't win a decisive victory in Case Blue or Kursk, that you may as well throw in the towel. Otherwise you're going to witness the magnificent army you've so painstakingly built up get trashed in 44-45.

[Vaughn]

If you get to the defensive scenarios of 44-45 you can bet that you are toast. These scenarios seem to be designed for you to lose. Lose badly - most of the time.

[aleader]

If you get to the defensive scenarios of 44-45 you can bet that you are toast. These scenarios seem to be designed for you to lose. Lose badly - most of the time.

Which isn't fun and begs the question why those scenarios are in the game. It is a 'game' afterall, not a history lesson. We all know the Germans lost. I would rather play well balanced (i.e. you have a chance to win with skilled play) alternate reality scenarios in the campaign than impossible ones that offer zero replay value.

[MarsRobert]

If you get to the defensive scenarios of 44-45 you can bet that you are toast. These scenarios seem to be designed for you to lose. Lose badly - most of the time.

Which isn't fun and begs the question why those scenarios are in the game. It is a 'game' afterall, not a history lesson. We all know the Germans lost. I would rather play well balanced (i.e. you have a chance to win with skilled play) alternate reality scenarios in the campaign than impossible ones that offer zero replay value.

Vaughn, thanks for confirming what I suspected.

aleader, I couldn't agree more. You hit it right on the nail. Seems to me in those scenarios towards the end of the campaign you should have at least a fair chance of if not winning a clear-cut victory, at least coming away with your pride (and your army reasonably intact. Again, I found it extremely demoralizing to win a decisive victory in Italy only to have my army in the very next battle (Overlord) thoroughly trashed. Also, although historical accuracy is high on my list, it should never get in the way of fun.

BTW, I'm putting my gaming on hold while I wait for my new Falcon gaming rig. IMHO Falcon is the best desktop ever made. I highly recommend them.

[yoky]

I did decisive victory in 15 turns. Thanks billmv44 ! I had prestige just for 5 Tigers II's and no other improvements for rest of army at the scenario beginning. During the battle I lost 13 core units and I had only possibility to make normal Replacements, no Elite Replacement available due to low prestige remaining. I played quickly so I can imagine playing once again more carefuly then I could save other circa 5 core units, no more. IS2's are really deadly.
Now I started Ardennes and afterwards I plan to go back and try Lake Balaton in order to see once again bloody Red hords. If Lake Balaton is full of IS2's instead of plenty of T34's it will drive me mad. Moreover with low prestige there is a low chance to survive longer and play balanced oponent in following Germany scenario Frankly speaking, those scenarios are not something I like to play even looking forward to replay

[Kerensky]

There's good news and there's bad news yoky.

Good news?
Balaton has 0 T34s. Not a single one.

The bad news?
They've all been replaced by Su-100s.

[yoky]

Excellent! Kerensky, thanks for warning I will teach them and if not, they will kick me out of Hungary back to Berlin, most probably

Anyway, great game, thank you for that! I'm looking forward to see more expansion packs (with new East campaign preferably or any other campaign included). Please, could you at least indicate some release date of something improving/modifying/patching original Panzer Corps?

[Kerensky]

Unfortunately I'm not allowed to say anything specific... yet.

[flakfernrohr]

Hello, I am new to this forum. I have played Panzer General since I had the version for the Sony Playstation back in 1995. I had saved a bunch of my successful campaigns on the little plastic game cards when I managed to win some good ones. One of them was Bagration in several ways. I even managed to win Zitadelle (Kursk), but Bagration was the hardest. I was so happy when I won at Bagration that I got drunk and put the game on a game card several times. I went on and on with slight variations of the strategy until I had won several ways. I wish I could read those old cards now. I didn't have any cheat codes either.

Don't give up on Bagration, you can win it. I did not think I could, but when I finally did, it was like a shot of nitrous oxide in my veins. It is so much fun crossing back over the river and wasting the Soviet units, mopping them up. I used my units that had lots of battle scars and were all mostly replenished. It is indeed a sweet moment and the vengeance was nice. I lost at Bagration many times before I had a breakthrough victory. It happened when I thought all was lost and I just fought to the last man/unit thinking "what the H*ll". I broke into a sweat pushing all those buttons on the Sony controllers. I sort of got tired of playing it once I discovered how to win, but it was still fun to go back and kick a** when I knew what would happen.

I just hope my brain will be able to wipe away the cobwebs on my strategy so that I can remember what I did back then. It was the right combination of units mixed with experienced units in place at the start that I always saved. It will look like all is lost in the game (just as at Zitadelle), but you can't quit fighting to the last man. That is what wins. You cannot give up thinking it's all over. The tide will turn and you will see. In Zitadelle I used up damned near all my Stukas and planes but they were the key to winning against the Soviet assaults. Go out and bomb the heck out them and then come back home ASAP before the Soviet planes arrive. My first and best breakthroughs were from the south and I always held the line in the west. The north approach usually followed the south in terms of having success.

I have just purchased the PC version of the game and I am waiting on it to arrive. I still have all my old games and the books and guides as I kept them out of sentimentality. The Play Station is long gone of course.

But to get to the point. It has been probably 13-14 years since I played Panzer General. I remember the basic strategy on how I managed to win at Bagration. It is true about having to load up on Tiger II's and good infantry, airborne and engineers. I always made a "dug in" defense on the river crossings and ambushed the Soviets as they tried to to cross the river in other points. You need good infantry and heavy tanks to do this. I used aircraft until they were all gone. I put a number of units in the far back woods on the back part of the game field as reserves and hit the Soviets with them when needed. The trick I found was to put heavy tanks on sides of the river crossings to the west and let them stay because they get "dug in" after so many turns. You need to put them in early in the game before you withdraw back across the river. You will need to fight Soviet infantry, etc. in the woods on the west side of the river with heavy and experienced infantry. Leave the armor on the crossings and in reserve if you can, hidden from airplanes. I never won across the east side of the river. I had to deplete the Soviets first as they tried to come across the river.

Then I would go across and kick A**. I had highly experienced units, all veteran and lots of them having been replenished. It was a little bit of fight at first, but it evolved to mop up operations fairly quickly. That's when you get a couple of cold ones from the Fridge to savor the victory as you wipe them out. When I get my PC game and can oil up my brain to remembering how I did it, I will come back to the forum and tell you how I managed.

[Kerensky]

Although such a plan is feasible for Bagration as a single scenario, the effect this scenario has on your campaign and core units is terminal. Especially with what comes after (Balaton) and even more so on the higher difficulty settings.

That's the trouble people are having.

[ijontichy]

But to get to the point. It has been probably 13-14 years since I played Panzer General. I remember the basic strategy on how I managed to win at Bagration.

You did not read my post. But that's OK. The main point is that Panzer Corps's Bagration is an entirely different beast from Panzer General's Bagration (i.e. Byelorussia). The same strategy will not work. Which is kind of cool because, well, vive la différence!

[flakfernrohr]

But to get to the point. It has been probably 13-14 years since I played Panzer General. I remember the basic strategy on how I managed to win at Bagration.

You did not read my post. But that's OK. The main point is that Panzer Corps's Bagration is an entirely different beast from Panzer General's Bagration (i.e. Byelorussia). The same strategy will not work. Which is kind of cool because, well, vive la différence!

My apologies for misreading your posting. My mind is a little rusty on the game obviously. So I guess I have some more sleepless nights, bloodshot eyes and unshaven mornings of hibernation to figure out how to "maybe" win a battle with enough to go to the next one. I remember the first time I played Bagration and I thought WTF! This is ridiculous. So I suppose I am in for the same emotional moment when my Panzer Command PC Game arrives. I may need to find cheat codes.

[ijontichy]

Just had my best performance in the standalone Bagration scenario. First turn bought 2 Tiger II's, and 2 Fw 190D-9's. Utterly destroyed his air force (6 fighters, 2 tac bombers, 2 strat bombers) in about 4 or 5 turns (with my 4 fighters). In the end I managed to hold 3 cities but only 1 objective city. I destroyed 9 out of his starting 20 armour units (including 3 of his 9 IS-2's, 2 of his 4 T-34's), 4 out of his 9 artillery units, half his AA and recon, and only 2 of his infantry units. I lost essentially everything except for my air force, 1 Tiger II, a couple of infantry units, and a couple of el cheapo recon units I bought to annoy him in his rear area. It's funny seeing the AI divert half its force just to take care of a recon unit that has taken an unoccupied objective city.

I don't think I'll have unsolvable problem winning this scenario in the campaign, since I should have built up a large enough heavy tank force by then. Of course, no doubt I will take a lot of damage in the process. The standalone scenario needs to be fixed, but I reckon it's probably fine for the campaign.

[aleader]

The standalone scenario needs to be fixed, but I reckon it's probably fine for the campaign.

A lot of us do not think it's fine for the campaign. Should be alternate paths earlier along (or an outright end to the campaign) if those scenarios cannot be won/stalemate, etc.