Steam release?

[Generalex]

I think it is a good idea especially for smaller dev teams not to use steam.
But the Slitherine platform could be more userfriendly. What i really would like to see is that u can always download a purchased game
from your Slitherine account once you registered the serial number.
Since i got 2 Pcs and 1 Laptop and they are all at different places (not in the same house ^^) it would be nice just to go to the account and download the game.
Maybe Slitherine can implement this in future.

[impar]

I think it is a good idea especially for smaller dev teams not to use steam.

Why do you say that?

The sheer level of awareness that a game gets when it is on Steam is ridiculous. Specially for smaller developers that dont have big marketing budgets.
Even during the Steam promos the developers are happy.
Have a read:
http://arstechnica.com/gaming/news/2011 ... -sales.ars

[Generalex]

Very good games gain awareness because of their quality. But since there are very few games with a high
quality at the moment companies need steam to collect some kiddies with too much money in their pocket (or in the pocket of their parents).
So called indie companies are selling their games at high numbers like minecraft. I believe this is just a trend
like the whole ipad ipod etc pp thing.

Panzer Corps is a great game and since many game magazines made previews and reviews i do not think that a launch on steam would
give the numbers of sold games a boost. People know that there is PzC and if they like round based games like this they will buy it.

[borsook79]

Very good games gain awareness because of their quality. But since there are very few games with a high
quality at the moment companies need steam to collect some kiddies with too much money in their pocket (or in the pocket of their parents).
So called indie companies are selling their games at high numbers like minecraft. I believe this is just a trend
like the whole ipad ipod etc pp thing.

Panzer Corps is a great game and since many game magazines made previews and reviews i do not think that a launch on steam would
give the numbers of sold games a boost. People know that there is PzC and if they like round based games like this they will buy it.

The problem is that PzC is a very approachable and easy to learn game. It's not a game only for turn-based lovers, it could get to people who never played turn based games. Games like Dungeons of Dredmor and Eschalon were a great success mostly thanks to Steam and these are turn-based RPS, a genre that everyone and their mother thought was dead.

[MrsWargamer]

To me Steam = I got it dirty cheap during a sale.

Steam also = this game is dead anyway, and no one will buy it otherwise.

I am VERY much ok with giving Slitherine their 40 bucks for this great game, and do NOT require a Steam option all so 'I' can get their game for peanuts while Sltherine likely gets a loss due to the usual process of getting their game on Steam.

Steam is many conveniences for the consumer, but one thing it isn't is a way of getting better sales for the owner.

Maybe in 5 years when the game is no longer worth anything to Slitherine, and sales are almost dead, they might find Steam sales where they make a few bucks instead of none, a 'good idea'. But till then, I am happy to let Sltherine snub Steam.

[impar]

I am VERY much ok with giving Slitherine their 40 bucks for this great game, and do NOT require a Steam option all so 'I' can get their game for peanuts while Sltherine likely gets a loss due to the usual process of getting their game on Steam.

Dont undertand your logic.
A game in Steam sells well enough to cover the Steam cost of having the game there. Several publishers (indie) have said that during Steam promos they get far more revenue than they would otherwise.
Have a read:
http://www.bit-tech.net/news/gaming/200 ... revealed/1

[VPaulus]

@impar Look at this answer given by one of the devs. He makes a point, I've read this kind of argument before, from other indies and small developers as well.

No doubt Steam can, when all conditions are right, offer something extra.

Steam has some serious downsides for us as niche market strategy game developers:

- They take another 30% on top of your publishers cut
- They are AAA focused and work with all the big boys out there, meaning that is direct competition against companies who spent millions on advertising and PR alone. So getting in the spotlight on Steam is, as a small developer, nearly impossible. There are exceptions, but the majority just evaporates in their huge and AAA focused portfolio quite fast. You cannot compete and let alone, get some cover on the front page, getting a day is already a great achievement and only a few Indie games managed to do so. And even than because they got the help of some big publishing friends or were hits even before getting on Steam. So your changes are rather tiny.
- Basically as an Indie the only way you can get noticed is to sell your game really below your market value, for us that would mean something like 19.99 USD or even lower meaning, together with the 30% extra charges we would have to sell 100% copies more just to get on Steam. Now a game like Panzer Corps we worked on for almost two years with a core of 7 without any pay and in total maybe 15 people were involved, costs are around 4-5 zero digits, we paid out of our own pocket. So way to risky to gamble on Steam. It is hard enough getting some profit on these kind of games.
- At the moment they have so many games, they are not interested in taking on anything more Indie, priority for them are the big selling AA titles, that is where there biggest profit is. They support Indie as that is good for their image and cannot hurt them, but they are a digital download service alone, they don`t help you in any way getting any PR, on the contrary you have to pay for extra cover and than your competition is EA or SEGA...

However Steam could be interesting in the future after 12 months or so and we have had our prime sales and proper support by a trusted and committed publisher as Slith/Matrix and offer the game at a bottom price and the quality of the game and positive reviews have already given us some more credibility and we have a dose of good luck. For sure getting 100.000 copies on Steam would be great! I would sign for it any day. Wink

We are still looking and discussing this intern, some Indie`s did well and it can be a great help, if all falls in place,but the risk is not worth it from day one. A lot of Indies just were a total flop on Steam, even their games were pretty good.

I see Steam as an extra, a bonus, something we should try and see how it goes and Panzer Corps definitely could maybe succeed on Steam, but not on day one, as when it than flops it would mean game over for us as a developer, a risk we just cannot afford to take.

If you like our products and work, just buy the game here, Steam is good but not for very developer or every type of game or every market.

[MrsWargamer]

I am VERY much ok with giving Slitherine their 40 bucks for this great game, and do NOT require a Steam option all so 'I' can get their game for peanuts while Sltherine likely gets a loss due to the usual process of getting their game on Steam.

Dont undertand your logic.
A game in Steam sells well enough to cover the Steam cost of having the game there. Several publishers (indie) have said that during Steam promos they get far more revenue than they would otherwise.
Have a read:
http://www.bit-tech.net/news/gaming/200 ... revealed/1

Yes and no.

In the 80s I saw business after business fail even though they slashed prices, all while the businesses that held fast survived.

It's a horrible truth of business, if your product is perceived as cheap junk, it will be taken to be cheap junk.

I am not the owner of Panzer Korps, I am not a shill, I am not getting any value out of saying, those that won't buy it for 40 bucks, fine, refuse to buy it for 40 bucks, and we won't be seeing you on the multiplayer server.

This game is worth 40 bucks and picking on the graphics for instance like I have witnessed out there, is pointless. I can name lots of games with lots of pretty graphics, and I wouldn't want them from Steam for $1.99 as well.

Sadly, video gaming has fallen prey to twitch purchases from gamers more devoted to a temporary quick fix than a solid purchase meant to last. There is no time span of play for this game. Sure you can run through a campaign in a set span of hours. This isn't an RPG with a do it only once story though. This isn't a disposable finite play through value shooter. The dynamics of the entire industry, do not always apply uniformly to the entire industry.

I have seen kids pay 80 bucks for a console game, play it to death all week, and then walk to the store to ditch it for 10 bucks for the next quick fix. They do it game after game after game. Panzer Korps has no limit on play throughs, none at all. You pay 40 bucks, and you play it as often as you wish. I have zero desire to ever see myself not play the game.

But I agree, Steam is good for 'exposure'. Maybe next year who knows, when the game has been bought by all the wargamers that want it, Slitherine might ponder 'expending' some sales in favour of exposing wargaming to some maybe not currently wargaming types. It might draw the consumer onto the site. We all have heard the phrase, you need to spend money to make money.

I'm willing to let Slitherine make some money first

[borsook79]

. Panzer Korps has no limit on play throughs, none at all. You pay 40 bucks, and you play it as often as you wish. I have zero desire to ever see myself not play the game.

I love PzC but I can't agree with this. I have Panzer General 1, 2 and 3. The reason I playing PzC instead of one of those is because I played those games so many times I know every hex and can predict every enemy's move. PzC is a great game, but since it comes with a finite number of scenarios and has no random scenario generator. It has a limited life span. True it can be very long, but not infinite.

[VPaulus]

I love PzC but I can't agree with this. I have Panzer General 1, 2 and 3. The reason I playing PzC instead of one of those is because I played those games so many times I know every hex and can predict every enemy's move. PzC is a great game, but since it comes with a finite number of scenarios and has no random scenario generator. It has a limited life span. True it can be very long, but not infinite.

But if Slitherine releases more expansions and DLCs, plus mods done by the community, and without forgetting the multiplayer part, you'll have a great replayability factor, not infinite but nonetheless big enough.

[dks]

just my two cents but what's all the fuss? the devs said they are going to sell THEIR program the way THEY want to sell it. pretty simple statement. it is their program?

replay ability: with the mod editor, the game should last as long as the mods being developed for good old PG. which by the way are still going on thanks to PGF. the only thing that slowed the mods for PG was the new OS's that came out but again the mods are still going strong after YEARS of time. PC will last as long in my humble opinion. also the editor is FREEEEEE

[MrsWargamer]

. Panzer Korps has no limit on play throughs, none at all. You pay 40 bucks, and you play it as often as you wish. I have zero desire to ever see myself not play the game.

I love PzC but I can't agree with this. I have Panzer General 1, 2 and 3. The reason I playing PzC instead of one of those is because I played those games so many times I know every hex and can predict every enemy's move. PzC is a great game, but since it comes with a finite number of scenarios and has no random scenario generator. It has a limited life span. True it can be very long, but not infinite.

Well true to a point. My friend and I when playing Advanced Third Reich came to realize that the attack on Poland was always two dice rolls, and the Germans either screwed up and won messy or rolled the usual and won in the usual way and after two rolls the Polish were defeated. So we just never wasted time setting them up.

But the game is mod friendly. And I have learned two valuable lessons, if you don't have a life and play nothing else, maybe, but if you have a life and don't play it 24/7 combined with a bad memory the game is not easy to replay without a lot of work.

[impar]

@impar Look at this answer given by one of the devs. He makes a point, I've read this kind of argument before, from other indies and small developers as well.

Some points.
No one forces a Steam-only release. PzC can still be sold in Slitherine and Matrix shops.
The awareness that having a game in Steam gives is amazing. Just check Steam front page, several indie games shown.
The added volume of sales outweight the Steam cut.

On the developer quote I see that a later release on Steam may be possible. Good.

I already added the PzC exe to Steam but for some reason the Shift+Tab into Steam community doesnt work. On other non-Steam games it works. Need to keep Alt+Tab into Windows to keep track and talk with Steam friends. Its annoying.

[Molve]

Look, nobody's said it outright so I'll do it:

A remake of Panzer General is still a remake of a decade old game.

It simply isn't perceived to be worth $40. I've read the reviews, and nothing I've read so far suggests there's any substantial added value over those great old games, other than the simple fact Panzer Corps is available here and now, and PG isn't. It's possible I've missed something, but that's beside the point: the public perception is that this is almost a retroclone game, and you don't pay forty bucks for retroclones.

If you sell it on Steam for, say, $15, you don't lose a forty dollar sale. You gain a customer who would otherwise pirate the game, or simply ignore it. Steam is that convenient.

If you are happy with the sales trickling in from your own web shop, fine. No need to change anything. But if you want to gain $10.50 (assuming Steam takes 30%) from those who otherwise would have paid you nothing, put it up on Steam. Not a year from now - today!

Since you get ten bucks instead of forty, you need more than four times the sales to make Steam worthwhile. And this potential is real, and it is there, on Steam. I know it can be tough as a small-time developer/publisher; and that Steam can feel a bit scary. But you apparently overvalue the perceived worth of your labor here, and you needed to hear this from someone.

Best regards and good luck in the future!
Molve

[EuroBoss]

Nobody in thier right mind wants to be tied to the internet just to play a game in offline mode.More to the point Steam's offline mode has never worked correctly to this day without constant client updates.Also online mp would divide a community with players playing on Slitherine's official server and others at the mercy of Valve's constant screw ups with thier Steam client.

No thanks.

[VPaulus]

I've always classified games as good, average or bad. It doesn't matter if the game is inspired in a old classic or not. Do you enjoy to play it or not, was and is the question. In the end that's only what it matters.
Probably if the devs instead decided to go to the substantial way, they would have turned Panzer Corps into a RTS, or do it a real 3D approach like the new X-COM, turning into a WW2 fps.
Panzer Corps is different from PG but not the substantial way. Bit it has: new graphics, new rules, multiplayer, easily modded. It's not a retroclone. But in spirit it's close to the classical one and respected its gameplay. I wished that more developers would approach the classics this way.
Because a classical is always a classical, it's always a good game. Give me a new Baldur's Gate, a new X-Com but don't give me those modern "substantial" replacements with no soul.

As far has it goes to Steam, Slitherine/Matrix already have stated what they think. They didn't discharged the possibility of using Steam in future. But for now it's clear there will be no Steam.

[impar]

... other than the simple fact Panzer Corps is available here and now, and PG isn't.

PG2 is on GOG:
http://www.gog.com/en/gamecard/panzer_general_2

Nobody in thier right mind wants to be tied to the internet just to play a game in offline mode.

I dont need to be online to play a offline game on Steam.

Also online mp would divide a community with players playing on Slitherine's official server and others at the mercy of Valve's constant screw ups with thier Steam client.

Havent tried Slitherines servers but Steam servers have served me very well for the past years. Only had an issue with Steam servers in 2007, and I do use Steam extensively.

[bwort]

i bought this game here and just added it to my steam libary. Many in my friendlist asking me: wtf are u playing there? steam can spread out this game. I start all my games over steam, i like it.

[borsook79]

I've always classified games as good, average or bad. It doesn't matter if the game is inspired in a old classic or not. Do you enjoy to play it or not, was and is the question. In the end that's only what it matters.
Probably if the devs instead decided to go to the substantial way, they would have turned Panzer Corps into a RTS, or do it a real 3D approach like the new X-COM, turning into a WW2 fps.
Panzer Corps is different from PG but not the substantial way. Bit it has: new graphics, new rules, multiplayer, easily modded. It's not a retroclone. But in spirit it's close to the classical one and respected its gameplay. I wished that more developers would approach the classics this way.
Because a classical is always a classical, it's always a good game. Give me a new Baldur's Gate, a new X-Com but don't give me those modern "substantial" replacements with no soul.

As far has it goes to Steam, Slitherine/Matrix already have stated what they think. They didn't discharged the possibility of using Steam in future. But for now it's clear there will be no Steam.

So... what about impulse? Other games from Slitherine - e.g. Time of Wrath are there.

[MrsWargamer]

Look, nobody's said it outright so I'll do it:

A remake of Panzer General is still a remake of a decade old game.

It simply isn't perceived to be worth $40. I've read the reviews, and nothing I've read so far suggests there's any substantial added value over those great old games, other than the simple fact Panzer Corps is available here and now, and PG isn't. It's possible I've missed something, but that's beside the point: the public perception is that this is almost a retroclone game, and you don't pay forty bucks for retroclones.

If you sell it on Steam for, say, $15, you don't lose a forty dollar sale. You gain a customer who would otherwise pirate the game, or simply ignore it. Steam is that convenient.

If you are happy with the sales trickling in from your own web shop, fine. No need to change anything. But if you want to gain $10.50 (assuming Steam takes 30%) from those who otherwise would have paid you nothing, put it up on Steam. Not a year from now - today!

Since you get ten bucks instead of forty, you need more than four times the sales to make Steam worthwhile. And this potential is real, and it is there, on Steam. I know it can be tough as a small-time developer/publisher; and that Steam can feel a bit scary. But you apparently overvalue the perceived worth of your labor here, and you needed to hear this from someone.

Best regards and good luck in the future!
Molve

Need to respond to this

"Look, nobody's said it outright so I'll do it:

A remake of Panzer General is still a remake of a decade old game.

I need to say this, yet another *&^%#$@ dumb RTS game will be just another dumb RTS game.
YES there are good ones, they just happen to use apparently boring graphics if you read the comments THEY get. The Airborne Assault engine is the only intelligent way to design a real time based game.
Sudden Strike simply can't be remade in a way I would want if it was free. Same for Blitzkrieg. Same for any of the buggy HoI disasters. They are rediculous games that simulate nothing. They just don't give you an unrealistic experience turn by turn. And they do this farce with pretty graphics. It's no better than trying to have an indepth discussion with a moron.

I don't play shooters for a reason, they are brutally unrealistic when you consider no one is interested in playing them realistically. The only one I have ever seen worth the time, was Battlefield 1942, because it never wasted effort being 'realistic'. It's just silly bugger and it is best when the designers remember that is all any gamer will treat it like.

There were never all that many wargamers into playing board game wargames. Our numbers will never be epic.
And all we want, and we expect it too, is for our computer games to look like out board games. And aside from those types that refuse to find opponents to begin with, a decent AI in a game has only ever been useful as a training tool.
The best part of Panzer Korps, is the part where it is attached to a great multi player server. Because that is all that will ever make this game successful. Otherwise it is really just a very well patched updated cosmetically face lifted Panzer General.

I paid my 40 bucks knowing I was getting a good deal. If I don't play any multiplayer though, I threw away the money.