OK, I Think I Have it. :o)

[MarsRobert]

First of all I wanted to say that I really like this game. I swear I've never enjoyed a tutorial as much as I did the one for Panzer Corps. I liked it so much I played it twice. I think the game system is a lot of fun, and I also enjoy the between-battle organizational phases. Also, I've always liked games where you could build up a core force that you take with you from battle-to-battle. It makes you care about your men.

Having said that, I'm finding the standard 1939 campaign rather more difficult than I had expected. I'm playing it on normal difficulty, and although I know I could dumb the difficulty level down, I don't want to do this for two reasons. First of all it's a matter of pride. After all, I am an experienced gamer. More importantly though, I suspect with Panzer Corps as in more than a few other games, playing at easier difficulty levels could lead the player in to some bad habits that will spell trouble at the higher difficulty levels.

Anyway, after a few abortive attempts at a decisive victory over Poland I accepted a normal victory and moved on. Things really started getting tough with Fall Gelb though. I nearly gave up in frustration after 3-4 tries and was on the point of relegating the game to the dust bin when I somehow pulled out a normal victory by the skin of my teeth with heavy losses. Now with Fall Rot I'm about ready to throw in the towel again. What's been happening is that I succeed in destroying the main French army and air force and capturing Paris by about turns 10-12, but after that I'm finding that unexpectedly tough opposition in the other objective cities is making me fall well short of even a normal victory.

BTW, before you ask, the second time playing the tutorial campaign I won decisive victories in all of them except mission #5, so I think this shows that I have at least a mid-level understanding of Panzer Corps tactics and proper force match-ups.

I wonder? I recall a great old RTS called Earth:2150, where like Panzer Corps you had a core force that you took with you from battle-to-battle. The trouble in that game though was that if you didn't collect enough resources and/or took heavy losses in one battle , you could find yourself hamstrung and very hard-pressed to win the next battle. Is this what's happening to me in Panzer Corps? I wonder if not beating Poland decisively and thereby not doing the Norway invasion deprived me of experience and additional troops that made Fall Gelb very difficult and Fall Rot impossible to win? In other words, lack of success early on creating the downhill snowball effect.

Anyway, if any of you PC fans out there have any suggestions, I would love to hear them. I think this game is too cool to relegate to the dust bin.

[texican]

Air is likely the answer, and building too many panzer units likely the problem. I always get Decisive in Poland and Norway, quite handily, and I do this by having adequate air power to harry enemy grounds units, inflicting a hit here and there, but mostly reducing their entrenchment factor.

If you start with an air unit on an enemy town, even if it's just a fighter plane, you knock off one level of entrenchment, move it off, move on another, attack and knock off another. That's two entrenchment reductions in one turn just from air alone, making your infantry's job much easier.

Poland
Start with 1 Fighter
Start with 1 Me 110 tac bomber

I build:
1 more Fighter
1 He111 (does solid suppression on towns and stuff it attacks)
1 Ju87 (to pound any artillery)

My He111 will reduce the effectiveness of any enemy AA so that the other planes can attack stuff nearby with only minimal losses. (Some argue against the He111 and wait until Norway to buy a Ju88, but the He111 kicks almost as much butt, and it upgrades mid-war to an He177 which is truly a formidable plane, especially after your unit has 3 or more stars of experience).

Also, that far river on the east side. Send a panzer up there to take the airfield, then swing around the final town objective to take out any artillery hiding behind in a river hex.

Remember, two pushes in Poland. The top left town then go east. Then another push at the bottom victory town, then swing around and up. Both sets of forces ought to arrive at Warsaw around the same time.

Hope this helps.

(As always, there are many ways to "skin a cat", so I am sure others will offer valuable suggestions as well.)

[Kerensky]

Try to avoid the elite replacement button in the early scenarios. If you stick to normal reinforcements, you should be able to maintain your core size and overall strength much easier.

Artillery is a big help against the AI, but somewhat less effective against players in multiplayer.

Here, I made pretty much a 'step by step' video of the Low Countries, have a look for some examples of effective tactics.

Part 1 of 2:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cde0xufdi3k

Part 2 of 2:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qJ0R07OvitU

[VPaulus]

You shouldn't have any problem in playing with lower difficult settings. You'll learn the gameplay mechanics in a lesser frustrating way. When you become at ease with those mechanics it will be easier to play in higher levels of difficulty.
Remember, this is a game easy to play but hard to master. You'll not play those scenarios one single time. Go easy and you'll end up mastering it.

[Razz1]

Practice Luke., practice.

Use the force Luke......


If it's not hitting the elite replacement button then it's time to re-read the manual.

Basic concepts are not understood well or did you forget about mass attacks?

[MarsRobert]

Thanks guys for the responses.

Texican - Actually, I perceived it as important to build up my air force as soon as possible, and I also went in to both Gelb and Rot with only two (upgraded) Panzers. I did not, however, realize that little air trick you mentioned about two strikes in the same turn to reduce the entrenchment values. Thanks. I bought a Stuka rather than a Heinkel, although you definitely make a good case for the HE-111. I will try Poland again the way you mentioned, though I think I found when trying that approach before that my two forces separated were two weak to take Cracow and Lodz, so I instead opted for a single thrust from two directions on Cracow, and then once combined march north to Lodz and Warsaw. I do understand though that doing it this way probably prevented my winning a decisive victory.

Kerensky - Thanks for the recommendation concerning elite vs. regular reinforcements. If you think you can do without the elite reinforcements in the early scenarios then I will try it that way. What I was doing most of the time was giving elite reinforcements to my core troops and regular ones to the support troops. Concerning artillery, I did have two in both Gelb and Rot. I will watch your youtube videos concerning Gelb. The way I won it though (on the very last turn) was by combining my two pincers in a battle of annihilation west of Namur (can't remember the name of that town...Lille?), and then a mad rush with the survivors to occupy Abbeville and the other towns (of course taking losses along the way as you will when throwing caution to the wind).

VPaulus - So you won't get any bad habits playing it at lower difficulty settings? Cool. I then may have to swallow my pride lol and do that. I hear you about taking more than one try to win these battles. Still, it can be frustrating having a tough fight over a 60-90 minutes or so only to find that you're going to run out of time and not going to win so have to play it all over again. Oh well, it is what it is.

Razz1 - Yes, I did read the manual and am also aware of mass attacks. I would say though that you might have hit on something. The assumption I've been making is that it is considered a mass attack whenever two or more units are adjacent to a single unit. What I'm wondering now is is it possible to execute the attacks by all adjacent units as one attack? I'd sort of got the impression that this is not the case and that you still have to execute the attacks one unit at a time. Please do clarify this? If you can indeed execute the attack as one big massed attack then this would go a long way to explaining much of the lack of success I've been having.

[Kerensky]

This thread has some tips, including a visual description of the mass attack principle.

viewtopic.php?t=26367

[VPaulus]

You can rest MarsRobert, you want get bad habits by playing in lower difficult. It will give more practice and learn the mechanics.
You won't feel frustrate, and this also helps the learning process.
The devs wanted that the game should be playable by all people.
We have some advantage, because most of us have played Panzer General, so in spite the game is a little different, in its core it's a real PG.
I bet you'll get it. Don't worry.

[MarsRobert]

Thanks guys for the additional comments.

OK, if my understanding of the mass attack principle was more or less correct, I see one thing I was doing wrong. At times I would move up one unit and attack, then another and attack, and so on. I can see now that in attacking piecemeal this way you loose the mass attack benefit.

Wow Kerensky, your videos were great! I definitely enjoyed them, and watching them makes me anxious to get back to the game. There were a couple of things I noticed that could be of benefit, like using your air and artillery to soften up opposing artillery so they can't support the defense of a position. Also, and most significantly, I can see now that wining a decisive victory in Poland is critical so that you can do the Norway campaign and therefore have a large force available for Gelb and Rot. I think you had at least half again more troops for Gelb than I did. In that respect at least, I suppose I should be proud of my victory in Gelb with a much smaller force. In any event though I really had wanted to do Norway. That campaign has always fascinated me, as it's a classic air-land-sea battle.

Also, I see now why going easy on the elite reinforcements early on is important. It seems to me now that in the early stages of the game it is more important to build up a large force quickly as opposed to having a smaller but more elite force. You need a large force in order to have two large pincers at Sedan and Liege. The force I had at Liege was actually quite minimal and on hindsight barely enough to do the job.

Anyway, let me start the campaign again and see what I can do. Again, I love the Panzer Corps game system. It is probably the most exciting turn-based game I've ever played. Also, I think the people who referred to it as a 'beer and pretzel' game were wrong. It is far more intricate than that.

BTW, speaking of 'Kerensky', I hope the upcoming Slithirine WW1 game has the Brusilov Offensive.

[AgentX]

@MarsRobert, here is quick mockup I did for the opening move I use on Poland. Use the concept of combined arms with the mass attack feature. In the photos, I put in a suggested "firing order". Hit that first city with artillery first, then with the fighter to further reduce entrenchment. I then go with the infantry marked #3 just in case the enemy is forced out of the city, then you can pursue with the tanks (start with the PzII marked #5 since it can just make it to the city and the PzIII can move in front of him). Use the other infantry #4 if the enemy doesn't leave the city. Hit that cavalry unit with the Me110, then the infantry followed by the PzI. In the south (the 2nd photo), I usually start with the standard infantry first since it has a truck and can fix reinforce itself the next turn (if needed) and still get back to the fight with its truck. Use the PzI last, it has the weakest attack.

That's my typical opening move for Poland. I then purchase two artillery (you really need more) plus 2 Stukas because they're cheap and can be upgraded to Me110's later when Prestige is less of a problem. Try to get the Decisive Victory because going to Norway does help your campaign. I then buy a Ju88 and a fighter for Norway. 2 more fighters, a tank and an artillery for Low Countries. After you get through Poland, you can follow some of Horseman's AAR to get an idea on how to play those maps (he is currently on Sealion '40). We think a lot alike and use many of the same strategies. Link to his AAR: http://slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=26166

[Razz1]

Thanks guys for the additional comments.

OK, if my understanding of the mass attack principle was more or less correct, I see one thing I was doing wrong. At times I would move up one unit and attack, then another and attack, and so on. I can see now that in attacking piecemeal this way you loose the mass attack benefit.

Wow Kerensky, your videos were great! I definitely enjoyed them, and watching them makes me anxious to get back to the game. There were a couple of things I noticed that could be of benefit, like using your air and artillery to soften up opposing artillery so they can't support the defense of a position. Also, and most significantly, I can see now that wining a decisive victory in Poland is critical so that you can do the Norway campaign and therefore have a large force available for Gelb and Rot. I think you had at least half again more troops for Gelb than I did. In that respect at least, I suppose I should be proud of my victory in Gelb with a much smaller force. In any event though I really had wanted to do Norway. That campaign has always fascinated me, as it's a classic air-land-sea battle.

Also, I see now why going easy on the elite reinforcements early on is important. It seems to me now that in the early stages of the game it is more important to build up a large force quickly as opposed to having a smaller but more elite force. You need a large force in order to have two large pincers at Sedan and Liege. The force I had at Liege was actually quite minimal and on hindsight barely enough to do the job.

Anyway, let me start the campaign again and see what I can do. Again, I love the Panzer Corps game system. It is probably the most exciting turn-based game I've ever played. Also, I think the people who referred to it as a 'beer and pretzel' game were wrong. It is far more intricate than that.

BTW, speaking of 'Kerensky', I hope the upcoming Slithirine WW1 game has the Brusilov Offensive.

Oh crap!!!

Now your a Master, and have to look for another game.

Congratulations...
Master MarsRobert

[MarsRobert]

OK guys,

After all your excellent advice I was able to take out Poland in 11 turns without too much trouble (on normal difficulty . First of all I took great care in my assaults, and with one exception avoided the risky ones. Secondly, I was a bit more circumspect with my spending of prestige for replacements, and only spent prestige on elite replacements when I felt I could afford it. Also, I made the very most of my planes. Most importantly though, I spent some of my prestige on the very first turn to buy a Stuka, another tank, and another artillery, and these made a huge difference. Agent X, thanks for the maps. Anyway, bring on Norway.

Wow! I think I'm going to like the Slitherine forum.

PS.....Razz1, your reply was hilarious!

[MarsRobert]

I'm now back to the Fall Rot battle with a much larger force than I had before. I can see now that it is absolutely critical to win a decisive victory in Poland. This opens up the Norway scenario and allows you to do the invasion of France with a significantly larger force than you would otherwise have. Also, although my tactics needed some improvement here and there, I think the main thing that got me over the hump was the realization that you need to build up a large (as opposed to an elite) army early on, and also how during a battle you need to think long and hard before giving units elite replacements. In fact the extremely important point of building your army reminds me of what Sun Tsu wrote about how "a battle is won before it is ever fought." But seriously, I've found that your force size and composition is every bit as important (if not more so) than the proper battlefield tactics. Again though, this multi-dimensional aspect is what really appeals to me about this game.

Auf der Heide blüht ein kleines Blümelein
Und das heißt: Erika
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h8vZsmXUFAg