The Panzer Division

PinkPanzer · Post by **PinkPanzer** » Fri Jul 15, 2011 8:08 pm

If you like your core units to resemble a panzer division.

Tank Battalions: Early war 4 tank battalions in 2 regiments. Late war 2 tank battalions in one regiment.
Early war: 50% Pz I and II's, 25% Pz 35 and 38's and 25% Pz III and IV's. Late war: 50% Pz IV's and 50% Panthers.

Panzer Grenedier Battalions: Early war 4 Grenedier battalions total in one regiment. Late war still 4 Grenedier battalions total, but in 2 regiments.
Throughout the war, one battalion was in halftracks and the other 3 had trucks.

Panzer Artilliery Regiment: Early war 2 105's and 1 155 battalions in halftracks. Late war, one of the 105's would be self propelled.

Other Support Battalions: Bridging, Pioneer, AT, AA and recon battalions.

Other Panzer Corps level Battalions: These would be optional corps level units that could be included in a panzer division. A second pioneer, AT, AA battalion and a fourth arty battalion.

For the Luftwaffe, I try to have this historical ratio: 2 fighters, one fighter bomber, 1 stuka and one strat bomber.

PinkPanzer · Post by **PinkPanzer** » Sat Jul 16, 2011 5:16 pm

At the most simplistic level of applied warfare theory. It takes 8 units to make a good combined arms team in Panzer Corps.

A) 3 maneuver units: 2 tanks and 1 infantry, plus support units: 1 artillery, 1 AA, 1 recon, 1 fighter and 1 tac or strat bomber.

or

B) 3 maneuver units: 1 tank and 2 infantry, plus support units: 1 artillery, 1 AA, 1 AT, 1 fighter and 1 tac or strat bomber.

Plus having a Paratrooper, an air transportable infantry and a bridging engineer in your core come in handy.

Razz1 · Post by **Razz1** » Sat Jul 16, 2011 6:05 pm

Only in your opinion.

You don't need all those support units. The game is more tactical and don't need all those strategic units.

I'd squash you like a bug in MP. Even in SP those combinations are not needed.

TheGrayMouser · Post by **TheGrayMouser** » Sat Jul 16, 2011 6:15 pm

I always found paratroopers to be useless by midgame in original PG. They never acrued enough experiance to keep em in the front line and many scenarios later in game gave you few if any air xports. Youd be loathe to give them trucks in case you had an opportuinty to air dop, but then wish you had...so intead you leg up to the front and a cycle happnes , they remain at 1 bar experiance the whole game and if they do get in combat, get clobbered by the 2-3 bar AI units in later sceanrios. Just my remebered experiance, maybe in this game they might have more utlity (plus if you want you can use the cheat codes to give yoursleft air xport)

Kinda realistic though, the Germans wrote off any idea of using airdops at any level after Crete.

Horseman · Post by **Horseman** » Sat Jul 16, 2011 6:22 pm

TheGrayMouser wrote:I always found paratroopers to be useless by midgame in original PG. They never acrued enough experiance to keep em in the front line and many scenarios later in game gave you few if any air xports. Youd be loathe to give them trucks in case you had an opportuinty to air dop, but then wish you had...so intead you leg up to the front and a cycle happnes , they remain at 1 bar experiance the whole game and if they do get in combat, get clobbered by the 2-3 bar AI units in later sceanrios. Just my remebered experiance, maybe in this game they might have more utlity (plus if you want you can use the cheat codes to give yoursleft air xport)
Kinda realistic though, the Germans wrote off any idea of using airdops at any level after Crete.

Thats exactly my experience of Paratroopers in PG! The main problme was that they had an iniative of 0 so they'd constantly get clobbered before they even got a shot off

lordzimoa · Post by **lordzimoa** » Sat Jul 16, 2011 6:29 pm

That is the great thing about this game, more roads lead to Rome, you can play as you like, there are many combinations that work, some better than others, but that is part of the fun and re-playability, experiment, learn, improve your tactics... just have fun!

TheGrayMouser · Post by **TheGrayMouser** » Sat Jul 16, 2011 6:50 pm

lordzimoa wrote:That is the great thing about this game, more roads lead to Rome, you can play as you like, there are many combinations that work, some better than others, but that is part of the fun and re-playability, experiment, learn, improve your tactics... just have fun!

100% agree. In one memorable PG campaign i decided to go all out airheavy, paratroopers to the gills etc ... It worked great until the vastness of the russian battlefields and the death of any offensive with an airheavy force: Rain and Snow

texican · Post by **texican** » Sat Jul 16, 2011 7:07 pm

TheGrayMouser wrote:I always found paratroopers to be useless by midgame in original PG. They never acrued enough experiance to keep em in the front line and many scenarios later in game gave you few if any air xports. Youd be loathe to give them trucks in case you had an opportuinty to air dop, but then wish you had...so intead you leg up to the front and a cycle happnes , they remain at 1 bar experiance the whole game and if they do get in combat, get clobbered by the 2-3 bar AI units in later sceanrios. Just my remebered experiance, maybe in this game they might have more utlity (plus if you want you can use the cheat codes to give yoursleft air xport)
Kinda realistic though, the Germans wrote off any idea of using airdops at any level after Crete.

A little secret that you might already know is regular infantry (without transport) can airlift at a friendly airport, fly to an enemy airport and if the this hex is vacant, can land and capture the enemy airfield. Same with train movement, if the enemy city you go to is vacant.

I am finding the regular 3-movement Wehr Infantry without transport to be some of the most useful units in the game.

TheGrayMouser · Post by **TheGrayMouser** » Sat Jul 16, 2011 7:14 pm

texican wrote:
TheGrayMouser wrote:I always found paratroopers to be useless by midgame in original PG. They never acrued enough experiance to keep em in the front line and many scenarios later in game gave you few if any air xports. Youd be loathe to give them trucks in case you had an opportuinty to air dop, but then wish you had...so intead you leg up to the front and a cycle happnes , they remain at 1 bar experiance the whole game and if they do get in combat, get clobbered by the 2-3 bar AI units in later sceanrios. Just my remebered experiance, maybe in this game they might have more utlity (plus if you want you can use the cheat codes to give yoursleft air xport)
Kinda realistic though, the Germans wrote off any idea of using airdops at any level after Crete.
A little secret that you might already know is regular infantry (without transport) can airlift at a friendly airport, fly to an enemy airport and if the this hex is vacant, can land and capture the enemy airfield. Same with train movement, if the enemy city you go to is vacant.

I am finding the regular 3-movement Wehr Infantry without transport to be some of the most useful units in the game.

I knew but thanks for the hint! I hear ya on simple leg infantry. Sometime a large core force of legs, towed artillery AA and At can be even more efective than an uber panzer one (just not as dashing

)

HBalck · Post by **HBalck** » Sat Jul 16, 2011 7:43 pm

If you like your core units to resemble a panzer division.

Wait for my big map mod - than all units are batallions ! BTW - only possible with my new map scale 1km = 1 Hex and new unit parameters.

H.Balck

Tarrak · Post by **Tarrak** » Sat Jul 16, 2011 8:47 pm

In Panzer Corps paratroopers aka Fallschirmjäger are a lot more effective then they was in Panzer General. I never used them in PG for the already described reasons. They simply could not take a city defended even by the simplest infantry in a 3:1 ratio until you somehow managed to get them at least two stars of experience which was a nearly impossible undertaking.

In Panzer Corps this fellas are a lot better. I have 3 units of them in my core troops and use them regular to take objectives in the back which are usually only lightly defended or targets that are way out of the way (Baku in Stalingrad scenario for example). Yes they suffer some casualties, from time to time one get even totally wiped out, but still they are saving me a few turns which is well worth it. Then after all to quote High Command: "In a Blitzkrieg, a slow victory is no victory at all"

PinkPanzer · Post by **PinkPanzer** » Sat Jul 16, 2011 11:54 pm

Razz1 wrote:Only in your opinion.

You don't need all those support units. The game is more tactical and don't need all those strategic units.

I'd squash you like a bug in MP. Even in SP those combinations are not needed.

In MP maybe you'll squash me like a bug. But I'm sure someone will suffer the effect of functional dislocation.
What would you buy with 8 core slots. I'm guessing 2 arty's would be in it.

In single player the AI is dumb enough to lose it's airforce asap.

PinkPanzer · Post by **PinkPanzer** » Sun Jul 17, 2011 12:24 am

TheGrayMouser wrote:I always found paratroopers to be useless by midgame in original PG. They never acrued enough experiance to keep em in the front line and many scenarios later in game gave you few if any air xports. Youd be loathe to give them trucks in case you had an opportuinty to air dop, but then wish you had...so intead you leg up to the front and a cycle happnes , they remain at 1 bar experiance the whole game and if they do get in combat, get clobbered by the 2-3 bar AI units in later sceanrios. Just my remebered experiance, maybe in this game they might have more utlity (plus if you want you can use the cheat codes to give yoursleft air xport)
Kinda realistic though, the Germans wrote off any idea of using airdops at any level after Crete.

Paratroopers and air transportable infantry are a vital cog in deep battle and operational maneuver group theory. That's why I love'em.
I used them that way in PG. The pioneer would capture airfields and participate in battles for victory hexes. And the para would land in bad terrain then the next turn when the battle started it would kill crippled arty or ad, that I couldn't reach with other units.

PinkPanzer · Post by **PinkPanzer** » Sun Jul 17, 2011 1:17 am

HBalck wrote:
If you like your core units to resemble a panzer division.
Wait for my big map mod - than all units are batallions ! BTW - only possible with my new map scale 1km = 1 Hex and new unit parameters.

H.Balck

Big maps and big cores sounds tasty. I think I'll call my core units the Pink Panzer Division.

TheGrayMouser · Post by **TheGrayMouser** » Sun Jul 17, 2011 2:16 am

PinkPanzer wrote:
TheGrayMouser wrote:I always found paratroopers to be useless by midgame in original PG. They never acrued enough experiance to keep em in the front line and many scenarios later in game gave you few if any air xports. Youd be loathe to give them trucks in case you had an opportuinty to air dop, but then wish you had...so intead you leg up to the front and a cycle happnes , they remain at 1 bar experiance the whole game and if they do get in combat, get clobbered by the 2-3 bar AI units in later sceanrios. Just my remebered experiance, maybe in this game they might have more utlity (plus if you want you can use the cheat codes to give yoursleft air xport)
Kinda realistic though, the Germans wrote off any idea of using airdops at any level after Crete.
Paratroopers and air transportable infantry are a vital cog in deep battle and operational maneuver group theory. That's why I love'em.
I used them that way in PG. The pioneer would capture airfields and participate in battles for victory hexes. And the para would land in bad terrain then the next turn when the battle started it would kill crippled arty or ad, that I couldn't reach with other units.

No doudt you can do some creative and effective things with air troops in this game, but isnt "deep battle theory" a product of modern doctrine/theory and not WW2 ? Not saying your wrong but i thought that is a contempory thing.

PinkPanzer · Post by **PinkPanzer** » Sun Jul 17, 2011 8:41 pm

TheGrayMouser wrote:
PinkPanzer wrote:
TheGrayMouser wrote:I always found paratroopers to be useless by midgame in original PG. They never acrued enough experiance to keep em in the front line and many scenarios later in game gave you few if any air xports. Youd be loathe to give them trucks in case you had an opportuinty to air dop, but then wish you had...so intead you leg up to the front and a cycle happnes , they remain at 1 bar experiance the whole game and if they do get in combat, get clobbered by the 2-3 bar AI units in later sceanrios. Just my remebered experiance, maybe in this game they might have more utlity (plus if you want you can use the cheat codes to give yoursleft air xport)
Kinda realistic though, the Germans wrote off any idea of using airdops at any level after Crete.
Paratroopers and air transportable infantry are a vital cog in deep battle and operational maneuver group theory. That's why I love'em.
I used them that way in PG. The pioneer would capture airfields and participate in battles for victory hexes. And the para would land in bad terrain then the next turn when the battle started it would kill crippled arty or ad, that I couldn't reach with other units.
No doudt you can do some creative and effective things with air troops in this game, but isnt "deep battle theory" a product of modern doctrine/theory and not WW2 ? Not saying your wrong but i thought that is a contempory thing.

The Theory of Deep Battle was developed in the 20's and 30's when operational theory was being developed. OMG theory was developed to deal with Nato and their possible use of tactical nukes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_deep_battle

TheGrayMouser · Post by **TheGrayMouser** » Sun Jul 17, 2011 9:00 pm

Cool thanks for the link! Hmm, lucky for the Germans Stalin went a little trigger happy in his purges.

The Panzer Division

The Panzer Division

Combined Arms Teams in your Core.