Combat mechanics

[Chris1948]

Using the L button extensivly I noticed that Killed soldiers in an attack still counterattack and die later after the battle is over. For example: In an infantry attack vs another infantry unit both with 10 strength points, Germans shoot first and scored 4 kills and 3 supression. Then the French infantry counterattacks with 7 unsupressed strength ponts (kills probably do not count !) and finally after the battle is over the French infantry has 6 strength points. Sometimes even if the first unit kills all the other unit's stenght points the defending unit still counteattacks with dimished strength.
What are the combat mechanics after these combat results?

[Rudankort]

It works like this: for each point of initiative advantage you inflict 20% of damage (kills and suppression) before the enemy can counterattack. So if you have an initiative advantage of 5 or more, you shoot first and all damage is applied right away. But if your advantage is less than that, some damage is applied only after the enemy counterattacks you.

[Chris1948]

So let's say that you score 5 kills and 3 supression and and the initiative difference is 2. The defender started the fight with 10 strength points. Now 2 strength points out of 5 (40%) are killed right away and the other 3 strength points are killed after the counterattack. The question is: the defender counterattacks with 5 strength points ( 10 -2 from kills - 3 from supression = 5 strength points) or with 7 strength points (10 - 2 from kills - [3*0.4=1.2 rounded down to 1] = 7). That is the 40% applies to the kills and the supression too?
And one more thing. When a unit retreats?

[Rudankort]

So let's say that you score 5 kills and 3 supression and and the initiative difference is 2. The defender started the fight with 10 strength points. Now 2 strength points out of 5 (40%) are killed right away and the other 3 strength points are killed after the counterattack. The question is: the defender counterattacks with 5 strength points ( 10 -2 from kills - 3 from supression = 5 strength points) or with 7 strength points (10 - 2 from kills - [3*0.4=1.2 rounded down to 1] = 7). That is the 40% applies to the kills and the supression too?

Yes, 40% is applied to both kills and suppression. So in your example the enemy will counterattack with 7 strength. Note that rounding is done to the nearest number, so 1.2 is rounded to 1 but 1.6 is rounded to 2.

And one more thing. When a unit retreats?

When its strength is fully killed or suppressed in combat, and it has no entrenchment left.

[222cd]

I made a mistake........................................

[VPaulus]

Hummmm... I see

[Molve]

And one more thing. When a unit retreats?

When its strength is fully killed or suppressed in combat, and it has no entrenchment left.

That latter part is important.

It essentially means units won't retreat unless their entrenchment value before the battle is maximum 1.

Knowing this will allow you to avoid those irritating moments when the enemy heroically holds the line (say Infantry reduced to strength 1 that refuses to yield that victory hex that would allow you to move in and claim a Decisive Victory)

[captainjack]

Good explanation Rudankort - I had been reading up on initiative and combat results and this was something I hadn't understood before.
As usual, I need to plan better!

[Mordan]

what is the formula for retreating units..

I have played PG and PGII and I have never experienced such frustrating attacks where a 10 str panther attacks a 2 str tank firefly and the firefly lose 1 and bumps away 1 square!!!! I HATE THIS. Next turn firefly is 10 again. It happens ALL the time.

the bumping is an incredible advantage.. sometimes it happens sometimes it doesn't. Most MP games can be lost or win based on such lucky bumps. It is not really fun.

[Granatenwerfer]

IMO the results of the random generator are ridiculous, not worth for a tactic game.
I agree with Mordan, in the next version the random generator should be weaker.

Neither Email-games doesn't make fun, because I have the time to cheat, to reload as long as I want until the combat-result comes up to my expectations...

[naughtybalrog]

IMO the results of the random generator are ridiculous, not worth for a tactic game.
I agree with Mordan, in the next version the random generator should be weaker.

Neither Email-games doesn't make fun, because I have the time to cheat, to reload as long as I want until the combat-result comes up to my expectations...

The random combat results can be a little too volatile. I like some randomness however. Should you want to play without the random combat factor, one can always enable the "chess" cheat "which makes all combat play exactly as they were predicted."

[Granatenwerfer]

IMO the results of the random generator are ridiculous, not worth for a tactic game.
I agree with Mordan, in the next version the random generator should be weaker.

Neither Email-games doesn't make fun, because I have the time to cheat, to reload as long as I want until the combat-result comes up to my expectations...

The random combat results can be a little too volatile. I like some randomness however. Should you want to play without the random combat factor, one can always enable the "chess" cheat "which makes all combat play exactly as they were predicted."

I did not say I want to get the randomness turned off, but the results are too volatile. Example: When a Ger Pioniere attacks Rus Cavalry in forest, mass attack -2, entrenchment 2, the predicition was 2/5.
In reality the results were:

6/7
1/8
2/4
2/6
3/4
4/4
7/7
0/7
2/4
5/4
3/7
1/5
6/5
2/7
4/3
3/5

Looking at these results I think the makers should do something....

[hs1611]

Not a single 2/5?

[Nerdator]

Well, the fact that there isn't a 2/5 doesn't mean much, but still, it seems off: the mean for the damage Axis take is 3.19 and for Allied it's 5.44.

[Granatenwerfer]

Not a single 2/5?

Yes, no 2/5 even though is was predicted.

[VPaulus]

That was already debated in so many threads...

viewtopic.php?f=121&t=28199
viewtopic.php?f=121&t=31518
viewtopic.php?f=121&t=36215

[Dragoon.]

There is something wrong the way the generator creates numbers. I call it grouping when it happens.
It's like there is one first hidden roll that has an equal chance to land between 1-100, but then most other rolls form a cloud around this virtual number.
If I would visualize the random number generator results it would look like a long barreled shotgun pattern. A few pellets will fall astray at the far edges but most would form a cloud around the aiming point. And this "grouping" happens far to often and is then the source of strange combat results.

Let say you attack a target with your ROF 140%, strength 10 flametank and have a 10% chance for a kill, so if dice rolls between 90-100 it results in a kill. If that first hidden dice roll land, let say on 95 most of the 14 dice rolls land between 85-100, leading to out of bounds results. You can reverse the scenario to a 90% kill chance, if this first hidden dice roll goes between 1-10, most of the other rolls will be in the lower digits. Leading to an rather surprisingly ineffective attack.
If that would happen here and then, than this would be just bad luck/good luck. Shit happens right? However when I see this grouping pattern on a regularly basis, than this is a hint of an underlying problem with the generator.
What I would like to see is this grouping to be gone. This "dice rolls fall into the same range" get fixed, and each dice having an equal chance to land between 1-100. That is all what I could wish for.
I don't have a problem with spread in battle results. I think this spice up the game and it did it in all 5-Star series games I ever played. However within reason and without loaded dices.

[Granatenwerfer]

That was already debated in so many threads...

viewtopic.php?f=121&t=28199
viewtopic.php?f=121&t=31518
viewtopic.php?f=121&t=36215

Yes, thank you, right, but the the 1st two threads affect the game before v1.10 was out at least. IMO it is very pity that nothing happened regarding a litte toning down the ramdomness in v1.10.

BTW I have to praise this forum: I like this forum very much, because from this and from other threads I have learnt that the support of Panzer Corps moderators and even from makers is given. This is very good! I am delighted.

In comparison with other forums like the forum from Paradox it is quiete rare that a moderator helps and even more rare a developer says something.
Please keep this good service up in future, too.

[Razz1]

I agree with you on your comments.

[Mordan]

well reduce randomess for sure.

it happened to me again in MP Dniepr.

a Ger Infantry gets bloodied all the way from 10 to 3 pushed back into a river by a T34. Clear skies. Artillery fires. Ger Infantry down to 1, all suppressed. a 10 Rus infantry attacks. Guess what? Infantry BUMPS AWAY ........ I was like DOH!! Common! This is the most ridiculous random event that happened to me EVER.

Bring back some OVERRUN stuff! Make Units able to move twice like a recon to pursue a retreating unit provided there is enough movement points. Retreating is cheap free movement.

like most people i like randomness but too much randomness kills the joy of randomness.