Leader Deaths??

Blathergut · Post by **Blathergut** » Fri Jul 08, 2011 3:52 pm

Have you ever considered (or is it even possible) to have a chance of leader death/capture instead of the coming back after a few turns?

I've destroyed countless Russian corps with more leaders used than I've ever seen but the leaders have endlessly charmed lives and just keep reappearing.

Morris · Post by **Morris** » Sat Jul 09, 2011 1:34 pm

Good idea ! How about we make the leader death
1 if his unit (above 6 steps)is destroyed in one turn
2 if his unit is surroundered behind enemys line more than 15-20 hex .(longer than fighter's range)

Peter Stauffenberg · Post by **Peter Stauffenberg** » Sat Jul 09, 2011 2:36 pm

Morris wrote:Good idea ! How about we make the leader death
1 if his unit (above 6 steps)is destroyed in one turn
2 if his unit is surroundered behind enemys line more than 15-20 hex .(longer than fighter's range)

This is not very historical and implementing leader death would instead make the players be much more conservative with placing them. Why would a leader survive if the unit was already weak while the leader would die automatically if the unit was stronger. Enemy armor units can hit very hard and it would be unfair if that would immediately cause leader deaths.

Situation 2 will never happen in GS v2.0. The unit will be destroyed before it ends up more than 15 hexes from the front line.

If you look at the leaders of WW2 then you see that almost all of the survived the war, despite being involved in heavy battles.

A leader is a single person and he can easily evacuate just before the unit is overrun. Even when surrounded a leader can evacuate in an airplane etc.

What actually happened several times was that the HQ the leader was commanding was overrun. It meant the HQ ceased to operate and the units linked to the HQ suffered. This is what happens when the leader of a unit destroyed is put into the force pool. Units can no longer benefit from that leader and he will arrive 1-9 turns later. So you get a temporary setback. The return simulates the reforming of the HQ.

Some leaders were captured or killed, but that was more to bad luck than their unit being overrun. E. g. general Paulus in Stalingrad could have evacuated, but was ordered by Hitler to fight to the last man. So he was captured together with the 6th army soldiers.

I think this is a much more realistic way of dealing with leader.

Blathergut · Post by **Blathergut** » Sat Jul 09, 2011 2:39 pm

Ah, was just a thought. Thanks for the explanation of thinking.

Morris · Post by **Morris** » Sat Jul 09, 2011 3:20 pm

Stauffenberg wrote:
Morris wrote:Good idea ! How about we make the leader death
1 if his unit (above 6 steps)is destroyed in one turn
2 if his unit is surroundered behind enemys line more than 15-20 hex .(longer than fighter's range)
This is not very historical and implementing leader death would instead make the players be much more conservative with placing them. Why would a leader survive if the unit was already weak while the leader would die automatically if the unit was stronger. Enemy armor units can hit very hard and it would be unfair if that would immediately cause leader deaths.

Situation 2 will never happen in GS v2.0. The unit will be destroyed before it ends up more than 15 hexes from the front line.

If you look at the leaders of WW2 then you see that almost all of the survived the war, despite being involved in heavy battles.

A leader is a single person and he can easily evacuate just before the unit is overrun. Even when surrounded a leader can evacuate in an airplane etc.

What actually happened several times was that the HQ the leader was commanding was overrun. It meant the HQ ceased to operate and the units linked to the HQ suffered. This is what happens when the leader of a unit destroyed is put into the force pool. Units can no longer benefit from that leader and he will arrive 1-9 turns later. So you get a temporary setback. The return simulates the reforming of the HQ.

Some leaders were captured or killed, but that was more to bad luck than their unit being overrun. E. g. general Paulus in Stalingrad could have evacuated, but was ordered by Hitler to fight to the last man. So he was captured together with the 6th army soldiers.

I think this is a much more realistic way of dealing with leader.

Yes my professor !,but how about give a random 10% of the total of the leaders which I had mentioned death to represent the ones who was cartured or killed by bad luck just like Paulus .

rkr1958 · Post by **rkr1958** » Sat Jul 09, 2011 4:07 pm

Morris wrote:Yes my professor !,but how about give a random 10% of the total of the leaders which I had mentioned death to represent the ones who was cartured or killed by bad luck just like Paulus .

Paulus capture wasn't back luck. He was promoted to Field Marshall by Hitler as a way of encouraging him to kill himself instead of surrendering. He surrendered the day he was promoted. The 3-star Russian general who accepted his and the 6th army surrender had never see a German office of such a high rank. In fact he demanded Paulus provide proof of who he was and of his rank. After he was satisfied he is quoted as saying, "Cheer up Paulus and let's toast to Red Army."

The bottom line was that Paulus could have been ordered out. Look at MacArthur in the Philippines. He wanted to stay and fight it out with his men on Bataan but President Roosevelt ordered him to Australia. General Wainwright got the "honor" of surrendering Bataan.

I've digressed, but the bottom line for me is that I think the system we have now works very well and I'm opposed to the possibility of losing a leader permanently.

peterjfrigate · Post by **peterjfrigate** » Sat Jul 09, 2011 4:39 pm

Interesting discussion, and may I add that there is one unusual situation where leaders can die - if they are on a transport that's been sunk.

I discovered this the hard way when I foolishly sent Eisenhower on a sea voyage in sub-infested waters, instead of being patient and deploying him later.

In such cases at least you can (usually) avoid giving your opponent a propaganda victory by pretending it was only a lousy GAR - there's no notice given to either player that the leader has been drowned.

I don't see this as a bug in the game - you can't jump on a motorcycle or a scout plane if your ship's been destroyed by a Wolfpack.

_Augustus_ · Post by **_Augustus_** » Sat Jul 09, 2011 5:17 pm

Hi all,

Personally I'd like to see the possibility eliminating a commander and his staff. A very small chance, but I'd like see it.

Here's a question for you all who have played fair number of v2.00 games. Typically how many leaders get KOed during your games? A ballpark figure?

_Augustus_ · Post by **_Augustus_** » Sat Jul 09, 2011 5:55 pm

I was thinking the total number of times your leaders go to R&R in a v2.0 games. So Rommel is KOed 2 and Guderian 3 times that's total of 5.

Just get an idea of how small the invidual death chance would need to be so that one would be typically faced with, say, 0.5 leader deaths per game on average.

peterjfrigate · Post by **peterjfrigate** » Sat Jul 09, 2011 9:31 pm

I've never counted, but I'd guess I lose at least 4, but probably more like 6-7 to counterattacks even in games that are going well.

Blathergut · Post by **Blathergut** » Sat Jul 09, 2011 10:38 pm

Probably depends on play. This last game it seemed like every Russian unit I destroyed had a leader attached. (Literally!) At a guess I would say I must have taken out at least 10 leaders/times.

Morris · Post by **Morris** » Sun Jul 10, 2011 2:58 am

I agree the leader will die if his transport is sunk . How about 50% of USSR leader die after three times of losing his unit ( He would be called back by Stalin ,& be shot .

Plaid · Post by **Plaid** » Sun Jul 10, 2011 9:16 am

Any kind of leader death mechanics will lead ONLY to players being overcautious with placing them.
You will rarely see front line HQ, also leaders with + combat stats will be less popular.

Also if chance of leader death will be low, it will be very annoying randomness with people asking "WHY ME??" constantly, when this event occurs.

Last but not the least, I am against leader death because there is NO source of another generals, when your ones will get killed - pool is hard limited. And it is even more unrealistic, then no chance of leader death in combat.

Morris · Post by **Morris** » Sun Jul 10, 2011 10:47 am

Plaid wrote:Any kind of leader death mechanics will lead ONLY to players being overcautious with placing them.
You will rarely see front line HQ, also leaders with + combat stats will be less popular.

Also if chance of leader death will be low, it will be very annoying randomness with people asking "WHY ME??" constantly, when this event occurs.

Last but not the least, I am against leader death because there is NO source of another generals, when your ones will get killed - pool is hard limited. And it is even more unrealistic, then no chance of leader death in combat.

To maintain the present set up for the leaders is acceptable . But the suggestion of the death of general is realistic ! The General never die is really unrealistic !

Plaid · Post by **Plaid** » Sun Jul 10, 2011 12:59 pm

Morris wrote: To maintain the present set up for the leaders is acceptable . But the suggestion of the death of general is realistic ! The General never die is really unrealistic !

Find examples of army group/front level general death in action please.
Generals don't fight with their unit, they sit behind frontlines in their HQ.
So its totally wrong to think that destruction of unit will lead to general's death. He will always escape as long as he willing and allowed to do so by his superiours.

Morris · Post by **Morris** » Sun Jul 10, 2011 1:14 pm

Plaid wrote:
Morris wrote: To maintain the present set up for the leaders is acceptable . But the suggestion of the death of general is realistic ! The General never die is really unrealistic !
Find examples of army group/front level general death in action please.
Generals don't fight with their unit, they sit behind frontlines in their HQ.
So its totally wrong to think that destruction of unit will lead to general's death. He will always escape as long as he willing and allowed to do so by his superiours.

No， In real history , general like Mr Rommel ,Guidlian , Klaist ,etc usually command their troops at the front with their soldiers ! Even Montgomary had arrived the front line during the Alaman compaign .

rkr1958 · Post by **rkr1958** » Sun Jul 10, 2011 1:31 pm

Of course general officers from all nations represented died from various causes during WW-II. These causes included combat (i.e., KIA), friendly fire, accidents, natural causes (e.g., heart-attacks), execution and suicide. However; the majority of leaders in GS are 4-star or Field Marshall ranks. Some Commonwealth leaders are Lt-Generals and one is even a Captain, so we could them represented in the game.

No US 4-star generals died from any causes during the war. The US did lose two 3-stars, Lt. Gen. Simon Bolivar Buckner, CG Tenth Army, killed June 18, 1945 on Okinawa and Lt. Gen. Leslie J. McNair, CG Army Ground Forces, killed July 25, 1944 in France by "friendly fire".

None of the 19 UK and 12 USA leaders in GS died during the war.

Two of the 9 French generals died during the war (Billotte and Huntzinger). Billotte died from a car accident and Huntzinger died a year or so after the French armistice.

Four of the 21 Russian generals died during the war (Chernyakhovsk, Vatutin, Kirponos, Pavlov). General Chernyakhovsky, the youngest front commander of World War II, was killed by shell fragments while inspecting preparations for an offensive. Vatutin was killed by Ukraine insurgents well behind his own lines. Kirponos was killed in action during the defense of Kiev in 1941. Pavlov was executed in 1941 by Stalin.

Five of the 20 German generals died during the war (Rommel, Model, Reichenau, Bock, Kluge). Rommel was forced to kill himself or face a trail for treason and be executed. He chose the former to save his wife and son. Model committed suicide in the closing days of the war. Reichenau died from natural causes in 1942. Bock was killed by an allied plane attack along with his wife and daughter in 1945 while heading back to Berlin AFTER Hitler's suicide. Kluge killed himself after Stauffenberg's failed assassination attempt on Hitler. Only one German leader out of 20 died from allied fire during the war and that was behind his own lines and not at the front.

Two of the 12 Italian generals died during the war (Aosta and Balbo). Aosta died from natural causes in a UK POW camp. Balbo was killed by friendly fire in 1940 while his place was trying to land in Tobruk just after a UK air attack. Note that the date of death for Ambrosio is incorrectly listed as 1944. He died in 1958.

In summary, there are 93 leaders represented in GS. 13 of those 93 died during the war. 4 of those 13 were killed by enemy fire and only 2 of those 4 KIA's (which were both Russian generals) occurred at the front.

So, leaders of the rank represented in GS had very little chance of dying at the front from combat. Only 2 out of 93 over 5-years of war. The other 11 died away from the front and from other causes.

Personally, I don't think we need to put in place a model for leader deaths from heart-attacks, car accidents, etc. So I vote to leave things the way they are now.

Morris · Post by **Morris** » Sun Jul 10, 2011 1:55 pm

rkr1958 wrote:Of course general officers from all nations represented died from various causes during WW-II. These causes included combat (i.e., KIA), friendly fire, accidents, natural causes (e.g., heart-attacks), execution and suicide. However; the majority of leaders in GS are 4-star or Field Marshall ranks. Some Commonwealth leaders are Lt-Generals and one is even a Captain, so we could them represented in the game.

No US 4-star generals died from any causes during the war. The US did lose two 3-stars, Lt. Gen. Simon Bolivar Buckner, CG Tenth Army, killed June 18, 1945 on Okinawa and Lt. Gen. Leslie J. McNair, CG Army Ground Forces, killed July 25, 1944 in France by "friendly fire".

None of the 19 UK and 12 USA leaders in GS died during the war.

Two of the 9 French generals died during the war (Billotte and Huntzinger). Billotte died from a car accident and Huntzinger died a year or so after the French armistice.

Four of the 21 Russian generals died during the war (Chernyakhovsk, Vatutin, Kirponos, Pavlov). General Chernyakhovsky, the youngest front commander of World War II, was killed by shell fragments while inspecting preparations for an offensive. Vatutin was killed by Ukraine insurgents well behind his own lines. Kirponos was killed in action during the defense of Kiev in 1941. Pavlov was executed in 1941 by Stalin.

Five of the 20 German generals died during the war (Rommel, Model, Reichenau, Bock, Kluge). Rommel was forced to kill himself or face a trail for treason and be executed. He chose the former to save his wife and son. Model committed suicide in the closing days of the war. Reichenau died from natural causes in 1942. Bock was killed by an allied plane attack along with his wife and daughter in 1945 while heading back to Berlin AFTER Hitler's suicide. Kluge killed himself after Stauffenberg's failed assassination attempt on Hitler. Only one German leader out of 20 died from allied fire during the war and that was behind his own lines and not at the front.

Two of the 12 Italian generals died during the war (Aosta and Balbo). Aosta died from natural causes in a UK POW camp. Balbo was killed by friendly fire in 1940 while his place was trying to land in Tobruk just after a UK air attack. Note that the date of death for Ambrosio is incorrectly listed as 1944. He died in 1958.

In summary, there are 93 leaders represented in GS. 13 of those 93 died during the war. 4 of those 13 were killed by enemy fire and only 2 of those 4 KIA's (which were both Russian generals) occurred at the front.

So, leaders of the rank represented in GS had very little chance of dying at the front from combat. Only 2 out of 93 over 5-years of war. The other 11 died away from the front and from other causes.

Personally, I don't think we need to put in place a model for leader deaths from heart-attacks, car accidents, etc. So I vote to leave

things the way they are now.

At first, I do learn a lot from your lesson . Secondly , I will also vote to leave things the way they are now .