Who Says There are Too Many Partisans?

[rkr1958]

While Belorussia was the center of gravity for Germany’s eastern forces, it had by no means come fully under Wehrmacht control. Partisan activity was more pronounced there than in other sectors, where Nazi reprisals since 1941 ... by mid-1944 partisan numbers had swelled to something between 143,000 and 374,000, depending on who was counting.

Reference: http://www.historynet.com/operation-bag ... f-1944.htm

Now that's a lot of partisan and just in Belorussia alone!

[PinkPanzer]

As axis, I'm a big fan of infantry corps partisans in GS2. Not.

[schwerpunkt]

Some info I dug up during the early play tests of CEAW 2.0;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Gu ... re_of_WWII


"The program of the partisan war was outlined in the Soviet People's Commissaries Council and Communist Party[1] directives issued on July 29, 1941 and in following documents. Partisan detachments and diversionist groups were to be formed on the German-occupied territories, road and telecommunications disrupted, German personnel killed, and valuable resources destroyed. Stalin, in his radio speech on August 3, 1941, reiterated these commands and directives to the people. Hitler, when referring to that speech on August 16, pointed out that the declared partisan war in the German rear had its advantages, providing the excuse for destroying "anything that opposes the Germans".
The first partisan detachments, consisting of Red Army personnel and local people, and commanded by Red Army officers or local Communist Party activists, were formed in the first days of the war, including the Starasyel'ski detachment of Major Dorodnykh in the Zhabinka district (June 23, 1941)[2], the Pinsk detachment of Vasily Korzh on June 26, 1941[3]. The first awards of the Hero of the Soviet Union order occurred on August 6, 1941 (detachment commanders Pavlovskiy and Bumazhkov."

"Operation Bagration, June 22-August 19, 1944. Belarusian partisans took major part in the Operation Bagration. They were often considered the fifth front (along with the 1st Baltic Front, 1st Belorussian Front, 2nd Belorussian Front and 3rd Belorussian Front). Upwards of 300,000 partisans took part in the operation."

As you can see, Russian partisan activity got going pretty much straight after the invasion and escalated with time, becoming quite sophisticated and well organised. The Red Airforce commenced flying supply air drops sometime in 1942 and these increased over time.

[gerones]

Many soviet partisans were simply Red army soldiers that were lucky for being able to escape from the huge pockets formed at the first phases of Barbarossa. Afterwards, local people joined these soldiers to finally create partisan units.

One thing that I miss in CEAW GS is that partisans would have to have some kind of influence in reducing rail network capability. We all know that partisan specialty was railroad sabotage. So one thing that we could do is to reduce the extra railroad capability that Germany gets from occupied countries with rail capability like France and USSR so if there´s a significant number (4-5?) of active partisan units of France or USSR in a turn this would reduce that extra railroad capacity by 1 point. This way we would be penalizing players that don´t take care of the partisans since the real germans really took care of these irregular units.

[rkr1958]

As axis, I'm a big fan of infantry corps partisans in GS2. Not.

There aren't any infantry corps partisans in GS. They're all garrisons.

[StevenCarleton]

Partisans had different effects depending on where they operating. In most parts of occupied Europe, partisans were most valuble for gathering intel, and then to a lesser extent they were effective in reducing the economic value to the Germans of the occupied country. They did this through sabotage, encourging work slowdowns and resistence, etc. This forced to the Germans to heavily garrison these countries. The actual military value of partisans was somewhat low, although one could say assasination of commaders would be included (Heydrich in '42 in Czech). In many areas, partisans really weren't free since the allies were sending in highly trained agents and providing weapons and supplies.

It would be interesting if CEAS-GS could model these effects by somehow reducing the economic return to Germany of an defeated nations if a certain threshold of partisans were present for a certain number of turns. I believe that currently, if a partisan unit occupies an hex with economic value, that value is lost to the conquering country. It might also be interesting to increase their spotting range.

The Soviet Union and Yugoslavia were somewhat special cases in that the German troops were unable to pacify the countryside and round up weapons and troops in hiding, so they had huge cadres available.

[Morris]

the partisans in Russia is really a huge amount , but it is reasonable & acceptable ( I had met 8 russian partisan 1 poland partisan in one turn in 1943). But Is there any possible to give Axis some Russian liberation army in partisan level . In real history there were millions of it led by the surrender Russian commander .(although it was even less powful than Italians)

[richardsd]

I think Partisan's do most of what people want now.

They force the garison of cities and if you leave enough of them for long enough, they can cut rail links.

I think they work quite well at the level GS models, any more is taking the level down and there lies much complexity.

[Morris]

I agree . I just want to give Axis some help to hold the cities which they conquered in Russia . Anyway , it almost well done for the partisan set up .

[Schnurri]

One thing I've noticed is that if you manage to conquer Russia (Moscow and Omsk) the partisans seem to go wild. At this stage it doesn't really matter as all the cities are garrisoned and you can let them run wild but...is messy. Maybe it is more realistic that partisan activity would decrease after the capture of Omsk rather than increase? Not a big issue as once you've taken Omsk it is pretty much over but just annoying and perhaps unrealistic?

[Morris]

Usually,if anyone take Omsk ,game is over . But Moscow is only an half way terminal . After Moscow before Omsk ,Partisan is a serious problem . But it is reasonable & acceptable . But If game would continue after USSR surrender , the wild partisan(English) would not make sense . It should be less & less until almost no partisan after maybe one year . Since if USSR surrender , do you think the Patisans still have the faith & passion to fight ?

[richardsd]

The number of partisans is a factor of the territory you hold, conqour all of it and you get more

Why would you think surrender should decrease partisan numbers?

There are goiung to be a lot of 'annoyed' soldiers with not much to do!

[PionUrpo]

Not to get too far in politics etc. but with the Nazi occupation policies, which would amount to basicly plundering, pillaging and murdering across the whole country, partisans would go wild. Also, Russia is huge after all and there's loads of excellent places to hide.

Certainly the partisan effort would diminish over time but especially if they get outside support they would be a nuisance much longer than few years. Definetly it would be significant in the games timescale.

Ok, all that said, I like the current model fine too. The new code that focuses partisan spawns on cities in Russia forces decent garrison force for Axis. Perhaps Yugoslavia could be added that part of code as well. The partisan war in Yugoslavia was just about as intense as in Russia.

[Morris]

Not to get too far in politics etc. but with the Nazi occupation policies, which would amount to basicly plundering, pillaging and murdering across the whole country, partisans would go wild. Also, Russia is huge after all and there's loads of excellent places to hide.

Certainly the partisan effort would diminish over time but especially if they get outside support they would be a nuisance much longer than few years. Definetly it would be significant in the games timescale.

Ok, all that said, I like the current model fine too. The new code that focuses partisan spawns on cities in Russia forces decent garrison force for Axis. Perhaps Yugoslavia could be added that part of code as well. The partisan war in Yugoslavia was just about as intense as in Russia.

you said no politics but you politics . we won't agrue about it . But it is better to main the present situation of partisan ,no more change including Yugo. It is already very intense

[Morris]

The number of partisans is a factor of the territory you hold, conqour all of it and you get more

Why would you think surrender should decrease partisan numbers?

There are goiung to be a lot of 'annoyed' soldiers with not much to do!

the more you conquer the more partisan you get is right but Omsk fall .

although there would be a lot of annoyed soldiers , but they would go back home to work for bread .

[PionUrpo]

you said no politics but you politics . we won't agrue about it . But it is better to main the present situation of partisan ,no more change including Yugo. It is already very intense

I said not too far into politics, not no-politics

Anyway, I agree Yugo is intense but I've seen few games where it's has only has GAR or two. Since Yugo partisans tend to spawn on rough hex that doesn't matter too much. If they would spawn more often on cities like in Russia that would force to keep more garrisons in place instead of just railing when needed.

[Peter Stauffenberg]

One thing I've noticed is that if you manage to conquer Russia (Moscow and Omsk) the partisans seem to go wild. At this stage it doesn't really matter as all the cities are garrisoned and you can let them run wild but...is messy. Maybe it is more realistic that partisan activity would decrease after the capture of Omsk rather than increase? Not a big issue as once you've taken Omsk it is pretty much over but just annoying and perhaps unrealistic?

The partisan spawn rate is supposed to be halved when a country surrenders, not the opposite.

Remember that when you conquer a country you get control of ALL hexes of that country. Partisan spawning is determined per hex so if you get a lot of extra hexes then the you can feel that the partisan rate goes up. E. g. there are a lot of forest hexes in Russia and the spawn rate is higher here. Ungarrisoned cities in Russia have a 4% chance per city to get a partisan.

So you will feel more partisans because you suddenly get a much larger area to protect when Russia surrenders.

[Morris]

One thing I've noticed is that if you manage to conquer Russia (Moscow and Omsk) the partisans seem to go wild. At this stage it doesn't really matter as all the cities are garrisoned and you can let them run wild but...is messy. Maybe it is more realistic that partisan activity would decrease after the capture of Omsk rather than increase? Not a big issue as once you've taken Omsk it is pretty much over but just annoying and perhaps unrealistic?

The partisan spawn rate is supposed to be halved when a country surrenders, not the opposite.

Remember that when you conquer a country you get control of ALL hexes of that country. Partisan spawning is determined per hex so if you get a lot of extra hexes then the you can feel that the partisan rate goes up. E. g. there are a lot of forest hexes in Russia and the spawn rate is higher here. Ungarrisoned cities in Russia have a 4% chance per city to get a partisan.

So you will feel more partisans because you suddenly get a much larger area to protect when Russia surrenders.

I get it ,my professor !

[Morris]

you said no politics but you politics . we won't agrue about it . But it is better to main the present situation of partisan ,no more change including Yugo. It is already very intense

I said not too far into politics, not no-politics

Anyway, I agree Yugo is intense but I've seen few games where it's has only has GAR or two. Since Yugo partisans tend to spawn on rough hex that doesn't matter too much. If they would spawn more often on cities like in Russia that would force to keep more garrisons in place instead of just railing when needed.

I had an experience of four partisan at one turn in Yugo in 1943 . for such a small country ,it has been a lot .

[gerones]

I´m also fine with the current partisan system but, as I have posted above, to include some kind of influence of the partisan activity in rail network would add a realistic and historical factor in CEAW GS: partisans had the german rail network as one of the main objectives to attack. The more partisans the more german rait network would be affected by sabotage actions: 4-5 active partisan units of the same country in a turn seems to be enough to disturb german army movements by rail in that country.