Labs and Levels

Blathergut · Post by **Blathergut** » Sat May 07, 2011 8:07 pm

Could a brain who understands such things, explain to me how important the lab levels are? Is there a measurable effect to one level up in, say, dog fight compared to the enemy planes? I've always thought, well, one level ain't so bad...but is it? Is it varied in its effect or specific?

As far as building labs, I try to have, in '39: Axis with air (dog fight), general (industry), and naval; Brits with air (dog fight), general (industry)

and then I try to save up enough PP to buy another German TAC and Fighter and I save up until Brit manpower is above 75% so I can nab another fighter or two.

But is this actually putting me way behind as the Axis? Do you buy one of each lab in '39 before other spending? And then bump them up to 2 each in '40 before other spending?

rkr1958 · Post by **rkr1958** » Sun May 08, 2011 10:17 pm

I can tell you what I do; but whether or not that's "optimum" I do not know. But this is how I generally play it.

Axis.
(1) Turn 1. Sep 1, 39. Air Lab.
(2) Turn 2. Sep 21, 39. Armor Lab.
(3) Turn 3. Oct 11, 39. Infantry Lab.
(4) Turn 4. Nov 20, 39. Naval with focus on Subs.
(5) Turn 5. Dec 10, 39. General with focus on Industry.

I then buy fighter, tactical bomber, 5 level leader (air commander) and paratrooper division. Then I finish all repairs. My objective is to have everything deployed, ready to use and repaired for Case Yellow on turn 11, March 19, 1940. However; I will launch case Yellow on either February if I get fair weather even if the third tactical bomber hasn't been deployed yet.

In 1940 as soon as I can I build: (6) Second air lab, (7) Second armor lab, ( 8 ) Second infantry lab, (9) Second General lab with focus still on industry.

On the first turn of 1941 (i.e., turn 26 January 13) I will build (10-12) 3rd armor, 3rd air & 3rd infantry lab. Below are screen caps taken of my German and Italian research for a game I'm currently playing against Borger. I switched over in infantry to a focus on fixed defenses after I achieved Lvl 1 arty & AT guns because I was lagging there. Fixed defenses only impact ground corps so I can buy mechanized corps for Barbarossa. Even so I don't think fixed defenses will advance fast enough to reach lvl 2 in time. I will switch back to balance research soon. My research strategy is designed to maximize research breakthroughs for a June 22 Barbarossa.

I believe in research and try to always max out my labs. If you find this helpful I'd be happy to post my approach for the allies and I can use the mirror game I'm playing as the allies against Borger.

Blathergut · Post by **Blathergut** » Sun May 08, 2011 11:24 pm

yes...please post...this was very helpful...could be written up in a monthly something

Plaid · Post by **Plaid** » Mon May 09, 2011 3:20 pm

Each level of each tech have its own benefit, which can be seen in research interface. For example 1st or 2nd level of dog fight provide only +1 air combat to your air, while 5th level provides +2 air combat, and 6th level provides +1 air combat +1 survivability. In blitzkrieg branch some techs provide +1 shock (which is not so great), while some gives +1 always valueable ground attack, in armour branch last (6th) level provides your tanks with huge +3 surv bonus and so on.
I think +1 increase to parameter is quite marginal, while when you have +2 advantage over enemy, most of your battles will be very succesful (6 air combat fighters easily beats 4 air combat ones, same for 8 vs 6).

When playing axis I am often going for maxing out fighter tech (because its the most expencive units, after bombers, but bombers don't suffer any real casualties when escorted) so my fighters will win most of air battles with good score, providing me with PP advantage over opponent.

Another thing I like to max out is SUBs since its really cheap tech and with only 2 labs you can have level 6 very fast. High level subs can destroy most naval targets easily (including DDs, which can't advance in ASW so fast).

I am also trying to max other labs rather soon then late (building 1 in each category before 1940 starts, building 2nd air as soon as 1940 starts and rest - during and after fall of france, and third where allowed - just when 1941 starts).

Research is quite vital for the axis - they will collapse fast if any type of allied units will have significant advantage over german ones.

gerones · Post by **gerones** » Mon May 09, 2011 7:16 pm

Don´t you buy a 3rd german general lab by mid 1941 instead of an armour one?

kvadra · Post by **kvadra** » Tue May 10, 2011 4:35 am

I usually buy as many labs as fast as possible:
Germany: GEN (focus on Industry), INF, AIR, ARM (focus on Blitzkrieg), NAV (focus on Subs).
Italy: INF (focus on Fixed Defences), GEN (focus on Organisation), NAV (focus on Subs). Then I max out these labs.
UK: GEN (focus on Industry), INF, AIR (focus on Dog Fight), NAV (focus on ASW). Later in the game, if I can't buy any other labs, I may buy an ARM lab (focus on Blitzkrieg).
France: Nothing.

USA: Depends on which strategy I will use. But normally GEN (focus on industry) first.
USSR: GEN (focus on Industry), INF, ARM, AIR (focus on Dog Fight).

Aufbach · Post by **Aufbach** » Tue May 10, 2011 6:25 pm

I've been experimenting with different lab level settings myself. Currently, as Germany, I've increased my AIR to Level 4 (Dog Fight focus) and General (Industry focus)/Navy (sub focus) to Level 2 -- prior to June 1940. Italy I've got Level 2 for both Infantry and General.

Granted, this takes LOTS of PPs, so I've sacrificed a considerable amount of unit production to achieve these labs levels. But now my air units completely the skies: nothing else even competitive, right now. I'm finding this considerable air superiority to be a major advantage.

For units production, I've focused primarily on creating fighters, subs, and garrison units.

So far, using this, I've accomplished the following:

1. By summer of 1941: conquered Denmark, Norway, France, England, and Yugoslavia (Italy took Yugo).
2. Have seven fighters and three bombers, all at level 10. Plus 5-6 naval units at okay strength.

While this was occuring, I stacked the Eastern Front with garrisons, Italian leaders, and all of the minor Axis allies - basically in an attempt to hold-off the impending Russian onslaught until I could redploy from England.

This was the strategy from the beginning: take England first, then throw everything at Russia. That's where I'm at now and the biggest challenge is essentially holding the lines until I can counterattack Russia with enough strength to push through.

We'll see what happens; in any case, it's been an interesting game so far.

Blathergut · Post by **Blathergut** » Sat May 21, 2011 12:04 pm

rkr...if you have a chance, sometime...i'd be interested in seeing the allied version of how you work the labs

rkr1958 · Post by **rkr1958** » Sat May 21, 2011 3:59 pm

Blathergut wrote:rkr...if you have a chance, sometime...i'd be interested in seeing the allied version of how you work the labs

Sure. By the way, I'm seriously rethinking my axis strategy of buying just one naval -> sub lab. I think in my next game as the axis I'm going to buy two labs in all areas in 1940. Then in early 1941, a 3rd armor and 3rd infantry lab. Though I hate not to buy a 3rd air lab first. I haven't quite decided which two of those three labs I should buy their 3rd lab first.

Blathergut · Post by **Blathergut** » Sat May 21, 2011 4:06 pm

it helps just seeing possibilities explained out...little tweaks would be made by everyone as they go along

rkr1958 · Post by **rkr1958** » Sat May 21, 2011 5:06 pm

Dan,

I will give you the guidelines I typically follow for allied research. Now, there are players out there, and Joe Rock comes to mind, that will analyze the heck out of research and develop an optimum integrated approach for their strategy. For example, he may focus UK air tech on dog fighting and US air tech on close support. His integrated Anglo-allied air force will be built around UK supplying the fighters and USA supplying the tactical bombers. He will also do this for infantry and armor too. This level of detail and depth of analysis is one reason Joe is one of the elite GS players along with Borger, Neil, Max, Morris and others whom I've left out.

With all that ... here's my typical allied research strategy. And I do encourage all comments, critiques and criticism on it.

Below are screen caps of my UK, USA and USSR lab status as of 7/27/42 (turn 54) in a game I've got going against massina_nz (i.e., Craig). I generally like to build labs as quickly as I can; however, you will notice the I have two slots open for Russian labs that I've yet to fill. It's July 1942 and I'm battling against Craig's '42 summer offensive in the East. He's doing a good job of stopping my Murmansk convoys from getting through and unfortunately the limited number of Russian PP's are going to repairs and new infantry builds versus labs. But, I will build these additional labs (hopefully) once things slow down and stabilize again on the Eastern Front.

In general my UK and USA research approach is based on my strategy and assumption that the Anglo-allies will battle the axis initially at sea and in the air and that their first encounter on the ground will be in North Africa and the Med. Of course, the Russians will have to battle the axis on the ground and will battle for their very survival.

UK. 1939. (1) Air (balanced) , (2) Navy -> ASW, (3) Infantry and (4) General -> industry.
1940. (5) 2nd Air, (6) 2nd Navy, (7) 2nd Infantry and (8 ) 2nd General -> industry. The timing of lab builds 7 & 8 are constrained by UK war effort, which must meet or exceed 70% & 80%, respectively before they can be built.
1941 and later, when PP's and war effort allows: (9) 3rd Air, (10) 3rd Naval, (11) 3rd Infantry & (12) 3rd General -> industry.
I will switch research focus in areas between focused and general for all countries as I see fit based research progress (either the lack of or advancements in). In the UK lab cap below they were following behind in dog fighting (air) and surface ships (naval). Once I've max'ed out an area and free up labs I will then build as many armor labs as I can.

USA.As war effort and year allows. (1) Navy, (2) Air, (3) 2nd Navy, (4) 2nd Air, (5) general -> industry, (6) armor, (7) infantry, (8 ) 2nd armor, (9) 2nd infantry, (10) 2nd General -> industry, (11) 3rd Air, (12) 3rd Navy, (13) 3rd Armor

USSR.As war effort and year allows. (1) air -> dog fighting, (2) armor, (3) infantry, (4) general -> industry, (5) 2nd air -> dog fighting, (6) 2nd armor, (7) 2nd infantry, (8 ) 2nd general -> industry, (9) 3rd air -> dog fighting, (10) 3rd infantry, (11) 3rd armor, (12) 3rd general -> industry.

Blathergut · Post by **Blathergut** » Sat May 21, 2011 5:57 pm

thanks...and yes, i can see focusing one on fighters and the other on close support...

StevenCarleton · Post by **StevenCarleton** » Fri Jul 01, 2011 9:45 pm

Really good stuff! So I'm guessing you don't pick the Random Research option with these detailed plans?

Morris · Post by **Morris** » Sat Jul 02, 2011 12:51 pm

Ronnie is quite right . but during the pbem or hotseat , if you want to defeat your oppoent by some surprise ,you should do some adjustment. For example , if you want to launch a Armor bloc , you'd better invest in armor first ,if you want sealion ,air & navy lab is important . For allies there are also many lab plan replacement . Generally , you must develope your lab according to your own Great Strategy .

rkr1958 · Post by **rkr1958** » Sat Jul 02, 2011 1:23 pm

StevenCarleton wrote:Really good stuff! So I'm guessing you don't pick the Random Research option with these detailed plans?

Yes, I generally play with the random research option ENABLED. In GS, random research was made less random than in the vanilla game. The design team and some developers decided that fixed research was too predictable and led to research strategies and tech advancements that produced the same results every game. So it was decided to make random research less random but random enough that things would vary from game to game and your strategy might or might not produce the breakthrough you were aiming for in time to make builds for Barbarossa.