Very late (1680s-90s) musket and pike -- how to model units?

khurasan_miniatures · Post by **khurasan_miniatures** » Mon Jun 27, 2011 3:30 pm

For five musket, one pike stand units, how are people modelling these?

Do you have a stand of command in front of the pikemen, then four more stands of muskets? Or do you put the command in the pikestand (which would seem to make them unrecognizable as pikemen!)? Or something else?

I'm about to commission some and want to get an idea how people are putting units together.

Personally I might put the standard in the pike stand, then have the officer and drummer in the stand in front of the pikestand along with a musketeer, then more four stands of muskets. But any input appreciated. Thanks.

kevinj · Post by **kevinj** » Mon Jun 27, 2011 4:02 pm

I used one this weekend with a command stand of musketeers in front of a pike base. To be honest, that was the best way I could depict it with the figures available. One person out of four that I played did not immediately spot it, but it wasn't a problem. Possibly including the standard on the Pike base would be better as then there would probably be 2 Musketeers plus maybe an officer and drummer, with no tall thing to introduce confusion.

quackstheking · Post by **quackstheking** » Mon Jun 27, 2011 5:37 pm

In my later C17th French, I've gone for one pike base, 4 musket bases and one command base with the command base having an officer, drummer and 2 standard bearers on the base. My reasoning is 3 fold:-

1) as you have to fully define the troops as you deploy them I just say 5 shot and 1 pike which is accurate as there are no shot or pike on the command base.
2) It also means I can deploy them for the earler period as 2 shot and 4 pike!
3) If they are average units then they come off after 3 base losses so the set-up doesn't matter and superior I run the 3 stand unit as the command stand counting as pike with 2 shot sleeves!

I get a good looking unit that complies with all that FOGR requires and two flags look great in later armies as most regiments then started to carry 2. It feels right for me to have the command stand in the centre file at the front!

Don

Sarmaticus · Post by **Sarmaticus** » Mon Jun 27, 2011 7:05 pm

When I've thought about doing 5:1 units (I'm no further on than that) I've fancied giving all bases four figures and placing an officer in front of and between the two centre files of the middle muskets and an ensign between the centre two pikes. I like dense units.

nickdives · Post by **nickdives** » Mon Jun 27, 2011 7:39 pm

I agree with Quack, but I do not play competition games. If some rules lawyer was to start making noises they would be invited to leave. The important thing is to explain at the beginning that due to numbers of figures the Croats with a blue flag are in fact Cuirassiers etc. They have been told, if they then forget, unlucky!

marshalney2000 · Post by **marshalney2000** » Mon Jun 27, 2011 8:16 pm

I am using the command stand as one of the musketeer stands. It will only have three figures while the pike stand will have four.
John

petedalby · Post by **petedalby** » Mon Jun 27, 2011 9:20 pm

I agree with Quack, but I do not play competition games. If some rules lawyer was to start making noises they would be invited to leave.

Maybe you should give them a try Nick?

In my experience there are no rules lawyers playing FoG - everyone is very reasonable and friendly. As long as you explain what the figures represent there should be no problem.

quackstheking · Post by **quackstheking** » Mon Jun 27, 2011 9:23 pm

I forgot to say that all my bases in the late army are 4 figures per stand as this stops the 3 for medium and 4 for heavy potential misinterpretation.

I agree with Pete - I have found no rules lawyers in playing FOGR competition games. I've even met opponents who have given me advice even though it harms them!

Don

kevinj · Post by **kevinj** » Mon Jun 27, 2011 11:43 pm

I'm with Pete and Don. I didn't mean to imply that I'd had a problem with my depiction but that a base with command figures and a standard in front of a pike base may not be the most obvious. As for tournaments, they are much less intense than they were a few years ago and Fog R tends to attract a very good group.

Maniakes · Post by **Maniakes** » Tue Jun 28, 2011 10:26 am

I agree with the posters above that you should give competitions a try - these days they rarely see any rules disputes and I think they are full of gentlemanly conduct (FoG:R competitions and the posters above both being good examples). If you do go to a competition though you might want to rethink this idea:

nickdives wrote:. They have been told, if they then forget, unlucky!

When I've brought misleading figures to a comp I've been happy to explain as many times as asked what they are and even to let people take a move back if they have misunderstood - and other players have been just as generous to me.

In fact that is my advice for getting the best out of a competition - be as generous and gentlemanly as you would on a club night (maybe even more so, because you are dealing with strangers who aren't so familiar with your little ways!) and you will have a great time

petedalby · Post by **petedalby** » Tue Jun 28, 2011 11:52 am

In fact that is my advice for getting the best out of a competition - be as generous and gentlemanly as you would on a club night (maybe even more so, because you are dealing with strangers who aren't so familiar with your little ways!) and you will have a great time

Great advice - treat others as you would like to be treated.

I had my first ever game against one of the world's top players on Sunday - and we were both vying for 1st place at this competition. I let him adjust a move, even though he'd already thrown for a CMT for another BG. And later in the game he returned the favour. It was a really challenging but thoroughly enjoyable game.

Delbruck · Post by **Delbruck** » Tue Jun 28, 2011 12:47 pm

The alternate solution is to have the command base contain the pikes. This would consist of an office & standard bearer in the middle, flanked by two (short) pikes. Any drummers would be placed in the rear rank(s) of the musketeer bases.

This method allows the BG to be treated as an all musket unit if required.

khurasan_miniatures · Tue Jun 28, 2011 12:57 pm

Thanks for the feedback -- followup: are most gamers putting four musketeers on a base for end of 17th C? I had thought it would be clearer to use 3 as then they aren't mixed up with the pikes.

kevinj · Post by **kevinj** » Tue Jun 28, 2011 1:05 pm

If I paint something new I'll probably go with 3 to a base, more out of laziness than anything else

Otherwise, I'm not planning to rebase any of my existing 4 to a base stuff unless I find I need more bases of something.

khurasan_miniatures · Post by **khurasan_miniatures** » Tue Jun 28, 2011 2:38 pm

Actually for those armies that went over the the flintlock I might be more willing to put 4 on a base. With matchlocks still predominant in most late 17th century armies, one did not want to be in too close a proximity with one's mates ....