R tillery

simonthewineman · Post by **simonthewineman** » Fri Apr 13, 2007 3:52 pm

I know I spelt it wrong but what I would like to know is can Artillery fire in both players turns or just their own, now I know they can't fire in their turn if they have moved but if they havn't moved this rapid fire, equal in speed to other missile troops, makesl artillery very effective against mounted troops.
I speak fromm a bad experience of a battery of 6 Burgundian artillery blowing away some Lorraine knights, and before anybody says,should have attacked them with pikes, well I tried and that light artillery just seemed to dance around out of the way of the pikes.

ars_belli · Post by **ars_belli** » Fri Apr 13, 2007 5:38 pm

Hmmm... ancient or medieval artillery being able to 'dance away' from infantry? That can't be in the rules, can it?

Cheers,
Scott K.

simonthewineman · Post by **simonthewineman** » Fri Apr 13, 2007 7:09 pm

I'm afraid it is and all that is required of light artillery,which is what we're talking about is a cohesion test, which for supported drilled troops with a general in close proximety is fairly easy to pass.

ars_belli · Post by **ars_belli** » Fri Apr 13, 2007 8:41 pm

My understanding is that, with a very few possible exceptions, early war engines were slow and difficult to move during the course of battle, if not completely immobile. This appears to have been true even for relatively "light" artillery, whether it was powered by gravity, torsion, or gunpowder. To be historically accurate, I would think that the movement rules ought to reflect this.

Cheers,
Scott K.

lawrenceg · Post by **lawrenceg** » Sat Apr 14, 2007 7:05 am

light artillery can move (at 2/3 the speed of pike) but once it starts "dancing" it can't shoot. To move away from the enemy it must be facing away from the enemy.

IIRC the Swiss used light guns that advanced with the infantry, so the rules need to allow some movement.

I speak fromm a bad experience of a battery of 6 Burgundian artillery blowing away some Lorraine knights,

Knights only need to suffer two shots on the way in to light artillery, so you were unlucky to get blown away, or you were standing around for too long. And, let's face it, 6 artillery is a huge battery, probably the maximum for the army list.

rbodleyscott · Post by **rbodleyscott** » Sat Apr 14, 2007 9:52 am

ars_belli wrote:Hmmm... ancient or medieval artillery being able to 'dance away' from infantry? That can't be in the rules, can it?

Cheers,
Scott K.

simonthewineman wrote:I'm afraid it is and all that is required of light artillery,which is what we're talking about is a cohesion test, which for supported drilled troops with a general in close proximety is fairly easy to pass.

Are we talking about AoW?

There is certainly no "dancing away" for artillery in AoW.

Heavy artillery cannot move at all - not even turn.

Light artillery can only move at all if it passes a complex move test. All medieval artillery is undrilled. Non-skirmishers can only move away from enemy by turning their back on them. Troops making a 180 degree turn cannot also move. Light artillery cannot move and shoot.

So to "dance away" you would have to

1) Pass a complex move test to turn 180 degrees. Don't shoot this turn.
2) Wait till after your opponent's next turn. Don't shoot this turn.
3) Pass another complex move test to move 2 inches to the rear, still facing away from the enemy. Don't shoot this turn.
4) Wait till after your opponent's next turn. Don't shoot this turn.
5) Pass another complex move test to turn 180 degrees to face the enemy. Don't shoot this turn.
6) Shoot in your opponent's next turn.

So (assuming they manage to pass all 3 complex move tests) light artillery can "dance away" 2 inches (in 6 turns) and get in one shot against the enemy (in 6 turns).

What is the the enemy doing while they do this?

Pikes move 3 inches. If the artillery were in range to shoot (6 inches) before they "danced away" the pikes will hit them in turn 6 before they can shoot again. At best. If the artillery fail the 2nd or 3rd CMT the pikes will hit them in the rear in turn 4 or 6.

jre · Post by **jre** » Mon Apr 16, 2007 8:34 am

Besides the dancing comment (I play with a Burgundian Ordonnance, and I have enough troubles getting the artillery to a position I like to then try to move them further) the question is one of effect. Was artillery feared by its sufferers? Was it effective? My reading of battles and the subsequent evolution of weaponry makes me think that indeed it was effective, more from a morale effect (reducing the safe zone, disproportionate effect for individual shots) than actual casualties, but those also came at times. So it certainly has to be as effective as an archer BG or more. So you need that firing in both turns (which is not quick firing, rather a few high effect shots) to keep it from being a sitting duck.

The second question is of efficiency and cost. Is artillery as presented in AoW too cheap or too expensive for its effect? The power of artillery in ancient battles is open to interpretation, but this should not be, if we want to keep the balance. As it is I find light artillery more than worth its cost against certain enemies and not others, and heavy artillery is seldom worth it (unless I buy fortifications, but I never do so). So as I find the cost interesting I often use light artillery, so my opponents, when it is effective, complain that it is too cheap, and when it does nothing the whole battle (the usual result) they think it is too expensive.

Jos?©

ars_belli · Post by **ars_belli** » Mon Apr 16, 2007 12:42 pm

rbodleyscott wrote:So (assuming they manage to pass all 3 complex move tests) light artillery can "dance away" 2 inches (in 6 turns) and get in one shot against the enemy (in 6 turns).

That seems quite reasonable to me - many thanks for clarifying, Richard. I thought there had to be more to this than was indicated by the initial posting.

Cheers,
Scott K.

shall · Post by **shall** » Mon Apr 16, 2007 7:59 pm

Artillery have limited effect but some - more on cohesion tsts than in damage. But as Richard says we have kept them fairly immobile so more effective in defence than offence. Theya re very vulnerable if attacked without support. Not too expensive.

They are not going to be driving the results of any games I suspect. My sone managed to walk across a table with 2 BGs of Scottish spearmen and walk over fortification and 4 artiallery pieces. Some scary moments on the way but nevertheless even taking full fire and fighting them behind foritiaciton the end results was that the Spearmen got all 4 artillery.

Si