Salvo Foot / Impact Foot v Ordinary Shot

[Scrumpy]

I used Later Saxony (1697) v some Later Swedes last night and found that my opponent's foot just melted away under the intense firepower that my 6 muskets & regimental gun units put out. We were both wondering how do the salvo or impact foot ever hope to get into melee with these bgs if they face so many shooting dice on the way in ?

Worked out as 3 Swedish dice with a regimental gun v 4 Saxon at long range & 3 v 7 at close range unless someone dies, which is more likely to be a Swede, which will drop them down to 2 dice at all ranges. The salvo foot having to face 2 long range & 2 close range shots as they move in, as I doubt anyone is going to give them a free go by closing the range for them.

As it turned out, when one Swedish unit broke from casualties, the Saxon foot wheeled slightly and you end up with a horrendous 14 dice in one turn of shooting, 9 hits, 2 deaths and a superior unit is sent packing.

[petedalby]

Hi Paul - presumably in this match-up, the Swedes would do well to 'Command Out' their shot?

This would put them on evens at long range shooting, assuming both have an RG?

[ethan]

I certainly haven't played enough (either the match-up or FoGR) but I worry about this sort of thing. On the face of it the later armies look very deadly to most others.

I would be curious as to what other people have found in these match-ups.

[durrati]

Why would this worry you?

The rules are supposed to cover roughly 200 years of fairly fast passed technological development. The latest period armies should be deadly to earlier ones.

OK the points system to some extent should balance this out. However, when the effectivness of troops change so quickly it is difficult to get a good balance - as later armies would have to be so expensive and therefore so small as compared to the earlier ones that you can not play a sensible game.

Although I have not tried an earlier / later match up I think it is a fair guess that it would be balanced in favour of the later army. This is only a rules problem in so far as the rules are covering to much ground. It is the fact that we are willing to play such fantasy match ups that cause the problems - and the easy solution is to not to do so. Easy at a club game - just choose not to. If at a completely open tournament you are motivated mainly by winning, then chose the more effective army.

[khurasan_miniatures]

Why would this worry you?

The rules are supposed to cover roughly 200 years of fairly fast passed technological development. The latest period armies should be deadly to earlier ones.

Except for the fact that this appeared to be an historical matchup, Later Swedes versus Later Saxons, from the same time period.

Even it if wasn't, I believe that Swedes from Charles XII's reign would be the same as those described in the game example above. Historically the Swedes repeatedly defeated the Saxons in battle in the Great Northern War, just a year or two after the end-period of the lists, using infantry forces of the same composition.

I'm going to keep a very close eye on this thread, as I had planned to make Later Louis XIV French!!!

[david53]

Historically the Swedes repeatedly defeated the Saxons in battle

But how did they do when they faced the Brandenburg Army, not so well I would think.

[Scrumpy]

yes, it was the 1690s Swedes with the 4/2 salvo foot struggling manfully against 6 bayonet armed muskets with regimental gun attached. 2 of his units actually managed to contact, although only one after facing a full volley from the Saxons, the other lucked out and caught a unit defending some guns where only 2 could shoot at him.

We also tried some 5/1 Hapsburgs from 1683 v the 1683 Swedes on Monday, there none of the Swedess managed to get to melee, dying dramatically to the shot.

Mind you, I think my shooting dice were out in force last night, a unit of dragoons shot a unit of superior horse to pieces, getting 2x5 & 2x6 on the initial roll, and regularly scoring 2+ hits till the luckless horse broke from 3 casualties.

[khurasan_miniatures]

But how did they do when they faced the Brandenburg Army, not so well I would think.

In this period the only battle between the Swedes and the Brandenburgers was at Fehrbellin, and that was in 1675, a minor victory won by the Brandenburg cavalry. More to the point I'm fairly sure that the Elector had not yet abandoned the pike in 1675, and if my recollection is correct it's not really the right model to be looking at because it would be musket and pike versus musket and pike. Brandenburg-Prussia was not involved in the Great Northern War so there is no matchup there.

But the battle in question pitted pike and shot Swedes against musket-only Saxons, which is why I mentioned the historical outcomes of such battles.

So, is it hopeless for the impact foot pike and shot fellows like Swedes and French? Enquiring minds want to know! And fairly quickly!

[Scrumpy]

Some dispute about this, the numbers do not look good at first.

.........................Long range....... Close range

4/2 Salvo............... 2 dice.................2 dice
5/1 Impact............ 2 dice................4 dice
5/1 musket............ 2 dice................5 dice
6 musket................ 3 dice................6 dice

Add regimental guns if used. I for now cannot see away the Swedes get in withoug ganging up on the end of the line, I think a GC is all but compulsory in this period with all that firepower too, as we discovered, other units have to test for routing firends & the +2 for a GC is handy. Will have to play some more games & see when a solution appears, people always seem to find an answer to any troop type & tactic in wargaming sooner rather than later.

[rbodleyscott]

Some dispute about this, the numbers do not look good at first.

.........................Long range....... Close range

4/2 Salvo............... 2 dice.................2 dice
5/1 Impact............ 2 dice................4 dice
5/1 musket............ 2 dice................5 dice
6 musket................ 3 dice................6 dice

But you do need to take into account that (if Average)
the Swedes cost 42 points
the 5:1 boys cost 45 points
the 6 musket/bayonet boys cost 54 points

The 4:2 army can in fact afford Regimental Guns and still cost less than the the 6 musket:bayonet boys without RGs. The 5:1 armies can afford RGs for the same cost as the 6 musket/bayonet boys without RGs. This alters the odds considerably:

4/2 Salvo + RG ...... 3 dice.................3 dice (51 points) (Only one round at close range then they charge - otherwise they are doing it wrong)
5/1 Impact +RG...... 3 dice................5 dice (54 points)
5/1 musket + RG.... 3 dice................6 dice (54 points)
6 musket (no RG). 3 dice................6 dice (54 points)

Also the Swedes have much better cavalry than the Saxons, and apart from rolling up the Saxon horse, have a reasonable chance of riding down bayonet armed musketeers. (Equal POAs, the Swedes are Superior).

Note that none of the 5:1 Musket or 6 Musket/Bayonet armies have good cavalry.

So each army needs to play to its strengths and not to its weaknesses.

You can't reasonably expect a BG of Swedes costing 42 points to win against a BG of 6 Saxons with RGs costing 63 points - without help.

[khurasan_miniatures]

A Solomonic intercession!!! The French are saved, as they have splendid cavalry, and lots of it.

[hazelbark]

I must say that what looked very clear in my first read of a lot of these interactions in the Pike and shot are less clear once on the table.

[Scrumpy]

But.......

Those Saxons called upon their Polish cousins and employing the winged hussars ride to glory with at least one decent mounted bg !

The Cossacks also help when it comes to shooting up some unarmoured Swedish mounted as long as they can evade away lol.

Out of interest, which battles/wars if any does the Saxon/Polish alliance cover ?

[Delbruck]

I haven't received my book yet, so question..................

Can the Later Louis XIV list have reigmental guns?


I can't wait to receive my copy, Saxons with Polish allies sounds interesting

[Scrumpy]

What makes you think the Swedes will only get one round of shooting at close range RBS ? They will move to 3" or less and take vollies in their own bound and the Saxon bound.

[khurasan_miniatures]

Out of interest, which battles/wars if any does the Saxon/Polish alliance cover ?

Augustus the Strong became king of Poland at the very end of the period, and as King of Poland continued the Turkish War, which included a battle at Podhadjce.

I vaguely recall that the armies of his combined states campaigned together, but I only recall that because the Poles and Saxons did not like each other very much and performed very poorly when combined.

I don't know if there were any actual Saxon troops at Podhadjce. I think it was just a Polish army (no Lithuanians either IIRC). So actual evidence of armies fighting combined in this period is pretty spotty.

The more famous battlefield pairing of the Poles and Saxons was in the Great Northern War, just outside our period, where they were repeatedly defeated by the Swedes.

[Scrumpy]

No they don't get regimental guns Delbruck

[rbodleyscott]

What makes you think the Swedes will only get one round of shooting at close range RBS ? They will move to 3" or less and take vollies in their own bound and the Saxon bound.

Because if they have any sense they will move to long range (where their shooting - point for point - is as effective as the enemy's), and then when the enemy move into close range to get more dice, the Swedes charge them next turn.

Of course, if they choose to take on a higher number of points of enemy with a smaller number of points of Swedes, then they may also be outshot at long range. So don't do that.

[geoff]

This debate is very interesting. I am soon to start an early TYW German Catholic army ( as soon as Khurasan releases his figures ) and have been looking at the choice between early and late Tercio. Crunching the numbers I can see that the early Tercio does not have the concentration of fire to stop the Swedes consistently. This coupled with the better manouvrability of the Swedes in this period probably goes a long way towards explaining why Gustavus had great success initially. Wallenstein's army at Lutzen is reported to have had smaller units with a greater concentration of firepower ( no early Tercio stuff anymore ) and the result was a bloody draw. Of course his good defensive position was also a contributor.
It is with this in mind that I plan to use Late Tercios - at least the firepower concentration is improved with this. The debate over the Swedish effectiveness of Salvo in the late 1600's I can see leading to calls for them to cost less. This would be disastrous for match ups in the middle part of the TYW.


Cheers........Geoff

[erricolaw]

I played at list 10/12 LoA game anglo-dutch vs french and each result is always correlated with good tactic and deployement and also good dice.
Many times if a volley go bad the french inf. is on the anglo-dutch musk. at full strength and with a poa of advamtage in hth.
Ather times good volley can disorder anth then frag. the french with same kill anth the line of attack is fragmented.
IMO the real way to win is concentration of fire and cautios cofrontation with french horse for anglo-dutch.
For the french immediate attack on the enemy line tring to divide the enemy fire (es. one ally rgt have to fire on two french units ecc.) and french horse is more efficient then brits horse.
With the swedes the situation is similar but with a too strong swedes inf. letal in hth.