Non-flank Charge Contacting Flank

atatnet · Post by **atatnet** » Mon May 30, 2011 3:55 pm

The following situation arose in a recent game:

In the photo below, LH A and LH B are friendly light horse BGs.
LH Z is an enemy light horse BG.

None of LH A's bases are entirely behind a straight line extending the front of LH Z, as shown by the green ruler. So, LH A is not entitled to charge LH Z in the flank.

The LH A charges LH Z, but can only contact LH Z at the side(s) of LH Z's bases.

I know this is not treated as a flank charge, but:
1. how are the bases arranged at the end of the charge move: Pic #1, Pic #2 or Pic #3 (see below)
2. In the Impact Phase combat, can any bases of LH A fight? If so, how many dice?

Pic #1

Pic #2-Note : It's not accurate in the following picture but the top base of LH A could only contact front right corner of the LH Z BG

Pic #3

http://www.flickr.com

nikgaukroger · Post by **nikgaukroger** » Mon May 30, 2011 5:44 pm

Erm, none of the above

Closes would be Picture 2 but with the chargers in a 2x2 formation having dropped back the right hand file to pass their friends - and the front corners of both the contacting bases would have to contact the side of the enemy bases which it could probably manage with a wheel during the charge, otherwise I don't think you could do the charge per the way the BGs are in the picture - but you'd really have to see it all in real life to get a definitive view).

atatnet · Post by **atatnet** » Mon May 30, 2011 11:19 pm

Thanks for your answer, Nik, but how many bases of LH Z would fight in this Impact Phase since this is not a flank charge?

nikgaukroger · Post by **nikgaukroger** » Tue May 31, 2011 6:58 am

Most likely 2 each as it appears both will have 2 bases in contact with enemy - N.B. the number of bases fighting will always be equal in the Impact phase.

zoltan · Post by **zoltan** » Tue May 31, 2011 7:24 am

nikgaukroger wrote:Most likely 2 each as it appears both will have 2 bases in contact with enemy - N.B. the number of bases fighting will always be equal in the Impact phase.

But surely only 3 of the 4 LH Z bases are contacted by LH A and LH B? Or are you saying the front right LH Z base gets to fight twice (once at each of the two opponents in contact)?

kevinj · Post by **kevinj** » Tue May 31, 2011 7:31 am

I saw this as only B charging, in which case it would be 2 bases each. But if A and B both charge then they will have 4 bases in contact with 3 and the owner of A and B chooses which of his bases will be counting in the Impact phase.

nikgaukroger · Post by **nikgaukroger** » Tue May 31, 2011 8:09 am

kevinj wrote:I saw this as only B charging, in which case it would be 2 bases each. But if A and B both charge then they will have 4 bases in contact with 3 and the owner of A and B chooses which of his bases will be counting in the Impact phase.

LH A charging I think

Certainly I read it as a question with only 1 charging BG.

If both are charging you are indeed correct.

hammy · Post by **hammy** » Tue May 31, 2011 8:14 am

If I understand the question now, LH A and LH B are charging LH Z

If that is the case then the owner of LH A & B decides which order to charge his BG in.

If A charges first then it will drop back one file from the right, hit the front right base of Z and step forwards. LH B will then charge and if A has hit the front corner (so part of A is infront of Z) then LH B will drop back a file anf hit the front of LH Z. If LH A hit the side only of LH Z then LH B will not need to drop back a file.

In the first case there will be three bases of LH Z in contact with 2 bases of LH A and 1 of LH B so LH Z will roll 6 dice and A and B will roll 4 and 2 respectively.

In the second case LH Z will have 1 base in contact with A only, 1 with B only and 1 with A and B. A total of 6 dice per side will be rolled and the owner of A B will decide which of his BG gets 4 and which gets 2.

After the impact A and B will conform with A in frontal contact and B as an overlap if A did not reduced frontage and B in contact with the front of Z if A did reduce frontage.

I hope that makes sense, it got quite long winded.

philqw78 · Post by **philqw78** » Tue May 31, 2011 8:22 am

This is a mess. It depends if LH A is in contact with Z already, or has charged in to contact at the same time as B.
If A and B both charge then Z has three bases in contact in the impact so three each side fight. The player who owns A and B, having more bases in contact, chooses which base fights Z where two bases have contacted a single base.
If A does not charge and is not in contact then B and Z each fight with 2 bases in impact. B must then conform to the front of Z, pushing A right, left as we view it, one base width so it may conform to the front.

Code: Select all

If A is already in contact with Z the front base of Z is not a legal target of a charge by B as it is not a flank charge, so only 1 base may contact the rear base of Z, it counting as a frontal contact.

Should be Z cannot be contacted by B as neither bases of Z are legal targets

kevinj · Post by **kevinj** » Tue May 31, 2011 8:34 am

If A is already in contact with Z the front base of Z is not a legal target of a charge by B as it is not a flank charge, so only 1 base may contact the rear base of Z, it counting as a frontal contact.

I thought in these circumstances the first 2 ranks of Z counted as being in melee and so would be ineligible as targets.

philqw78 · Post by **philqw78** » Tue May 31, 2011 8:37 am

kevinj wrote:
If A is already in contact with Z the front base of Z is not a legal target of a charge by B as it is not a flank charge, so only 1 base may contact the rear base of Z, it counting as a frontal contact.
I thought in these circumstances the first 2 ranks of Z counted as being in melee and so would be ineligible as targets.

I'm at work, so you are probably right, I know the first rank is not a legal target in a none flank charge, wasn't sure on the second.

hammy · Post by **hammy** » Tue May 31, 2011 8:37 am

If only LH A is charging then it will drop back a file hit with 2 bases on 2 and there will be 4 dice each at the impact. In the melee phase LH A will conform to the front right of LH Z and shift LH B sideways to make room.

If LH B is already in contact then the charge is illegal.

atatnet · Post by **atatnet** » Tue May 31, 2011 9:49 am

The situation is:

1. At the beginning of the impact phase, LH B is already in contact with LH Z
2. only LH A is charging this impact phase

So, given these circumstances, and the discussion above, I guess the charge is illegal.

Thanks for clearing this up.

hammy · Post by **hammy** » Tue May 31, 2011 11:35 am

atatnet wrote:The situation is:

1. At the beginning of the impact phase, LH B is already in contact with LH Z
2. only LH A is charging this impact phase

So, given these circumstances, and the discussion above, I guess the charge is illegal.

Thanks for clearing this up.

It is indeed an illegal charge. The relevant part of the rules is on P57, last bullet of charging a flank "A charge which does not qualify as a flank charge...." There is an addition in the FAQ which defines being in melee to its front as the first two ranks of a BG so if LH Z were three ranks deep then the third rank could be charged but LH A would swing back to an overlap after the impact.

zoltan · Post by **zoltan** » Tue May 31, 2011 8:49 pm

So A can't charge as it has no eligible target. Can it wheel into side edge to side edge overlap in the manouver phase, as it appears to be too far forward to wheel into front corner to front corner overlap?

philqw78 · Post by **philqw78** » Tue May 31, 2011 9:04 pm

It could probably wheel forwards and turn 90 to face down giving an overlap of at least one base, any base behind a base touching the front rank of enemy also counting as overlap

zoltan · Post by **zoltan** » Wed Jun 01, 2011 9:52 am

philqw78 wrote:It could probably wheel forwards and turn 90 to face down giving an overlap of at least one base, any base behind a base touching the front rank of enemy also counting as overlap

In order for A to be 'in legal contact' with the enemy after the 90degree turn, during the wheel forward it would have to move right up and contact the enemy BG (i.e. not stop a gnat's todger short). Is it permissible to contact an enemy base in this way? Put another way, once touching an enemy to your front, are you permitted to turn 90 degrees during manouvre?

philqw78 · Post by **philqw78** » Wed Jun 01, 2011 10:08 am

You are allowed to move into overlap.

nikgaukroger · Post by **nikgaukroger** » Wed Jun 01, 2011 1:00 pm

I think the point would be that in this scenario (assume I've followed it) you would not be eligible to be an overlap when you contacted the enemy BG if you contacted the flank of the enemy BG with the front of yours (as you need to then turn 90 to be eleigible) - thus that would not be an allowed move.

philqw78 · Post by **philqw78** » Wed Jun 01, 2011 2:11 pm

OK, so turn 90 and then shift up to half a base.
But they could still make it many other ways looking at the photo.
Anyway I know the rules allow you to end in side edge contact so
I've stated my case, though I'm not certain, I planned each charted course and each careful step along the side edge, and rules not withstanding, I'd do it my way.