How many shooting dice ?

[Polkovnik]

How many shooting dice in each of these situations :

1) 3 bases of bow cavalry in single rank, all disordered by terrain, from two different BGs, shoot at one enemy BG.

2) A BG of 4 bases of bow cavalry in two ranks shoots at a BG of elephants (or camels). The front rank of the shooting BG is 1 MU from the enemy BG.

[philqw78]

3 as the loss is by BG for the first.
3 is debateable for the second as the rear rank shoot as if from the front rank's position, or wording to that effect, so could be 2. Roll the dice and see if it makes a difference?

[prb4]

2 for the first one because shooting dice are determined by target.

For example 4 bases of cav in two ranks is 3 dice.
It doesn't matter if this is from 2 BG's or 1.

If it was from two BG's the second ranks would add together for the rear rank shooting dice. If you determined dice by shooting BG then it would only be 2 dice if the 4 cav were from 2 different BG's.

[petedalby]

3 as the loss is by BG for the first.

Sorry Phil - I think you may be wrong?

Page 93 - last bullet point and continued over the page. For shooters I believe you add the total number of bases, then adjust for different POAs or Disorder etc.

As all 3 bases are disordered I've always played it that they only count 2 bases as shooting.

But maybe this is something else I've been getting wrong?

[philqw78]

3 as the loss is by BG for the first.

Sorry Phil - I think you may be wrong?

Page 93 - last bullet point and continued over the page. For shooters I believe you add the total number of bases, then adjust for different POAs or Disorder etc.

As all 3 bases are disordered I've always played it that they only count 2 bases as shooting.

But maybe this is something else I've been getting wrong?

Don't be sorry Pete (shows weakness). The only way I have ever seen it played that is similar is 2 four base disrupted LH BG still getting 4 dice.

[batesmotel]

3 as the loss is by BG for the first.

Sorry Phil - I think you may be wrong?

Page 93 - last bullet point and continued over the page. For shooters I believe you add the total number of bases, then adjust for different POAs or Disorder etc.

As all 3 bases are disordered I've always played it that they only count 2 bases as shooting.

But maybe this is something else I've been getting wrong?

This is how I've seen it interpreted as well. For shooting you drop dice per target based on shooters state and for impact/melee by BG. So in the examples given originally I think it would be 2 dice in the first example (2 disordered BGs) and 3 dice in the second example (elephant disorder).

Chris

[kevinj]

We had a debate on 1) a while ago. There wasn't a definitive ruling, but the concensus was that you total all of the disrupted/disordered bases, then apply the reduction. As Pete mentioned, the corollary to this is where you have 2 x 6 Base BGs in 2 ranks shooting the same target and get to count 6 front rank and 6 back rank bases for 6+3 dice. This is probably more common and is generally accepted.

For 2), although the second rank measures its range and assess target priority from the position of the first (P81), nowhere mentions that you shoot as if in that place, so only the bases in disorder range would suffer the reduction, i.e. 3 get to shoot.

[RobKhan]

For 2), although the second rank measures its range and assess target priority from the position of the first (P81), nowhere mentions that you shoot as if in that place, so only the bases in disorder range would suffer the reduction, i.e. 3 get to shoot.[/quote]

Do elephants disorder stands or BG's? If it is stands and the rear rank (not in disorder range) is in combat, is the BG split in it's status? I think not as the elephants disorder the whole BG not the rank.

RobKhan

[kevinj]

I think not as the elephants disorder the whole BG not the rank.

P132 covers this: "Only bases that are currently at least partly in the situation are affected." So any base that is more than 1 base width from the elephants does not suffer from the disorder.

[rbodleyscott]

3 as the loss is by BG for the first.

Sorry Phil - I think you may be wrong?

Page 93 - last bullet point and continued over the page. For shooters I believe you add the total number of bases, then adjust for different POAs or Disorder etc.

As all 3 bases are disordered I've always played it that they only count 2 bases as shooting.

But maybe this is something else I've been getting wrong?

No, Pete, you are correct.

The only way I have ever seen it played that is similar is 2 four base disrupted LH BG still getting 4 dice.

Tisk tisk. And you let the Daves get away with that? No wonder people think LH are too effective.

We had a debate on 1) a while ago. There wasn't a definitive ruling, but the concensus was that you total all of the disrupted/disordered bases, then apply the reduction.

Not quite sure why anyone would need a ruling, unless they simply cannot be bothered to read the rules:

 If more than one battle group is shooting at the same target, add the total number of bases to which a ‘1 dice per x bases’ rule applies before calculating the number of dice to roll.

[RobKhan]

So this means that a BG can be in more than one status at the same time? Front rank disordered and back rank in good order?

So if the BG is flank charged the front rank drops to Frag. and the rear rank goes disordered?

All of a sudden I feel something is missing here - I wish I had my rules to hand.

Never played with elephants before this is something new.

RobKhan

[rbodleyscott]

So this means that a BG can be in more than one status at the same time? Front rank disordered and back rank in good order?

Yes. Only the bases currently affected by the cause of disorder are disordered.

So if the BG is flank charged the front rank drops to Frag. and the rear rank goes disordered

Nope, both drop to Disrupted.

Disrupted and Disordered are not the same thing and obey different rules.

[RobKhan]

HA! of course thanks Richard - I was a little confused there and mixed up my Disordereds and Disrupteds.

I guess the elephants dis...????....ed me. Sorry guys.

RobKhan

[philqw78]

Yes you are.

[petedalby]

Don't be sorry Pete (shows weakness).

Nah - it's good to show weakness from time to time.

No, Pete, you are correct.

Hurrah!!

[RobKhan]

Weakness is just another asset in the arsenal.

I have read the rules concerning elephants and such and it surprises me that in other BG relationship measurements the MU is used except for shifting but in this case the base width crops up to give a split description of the BG. If I were describing the influence of elephants and such, I would have the BG disordered.

But at least now I understand and accept.

RobKhan

[zoltan]

The only way I have ever seen it played that is similar is 2 four base disrupted LH BG still getting 4 dice.

Tisk tisk. And you let the Daves get away with that? No wonder people think LH are too effective.

OK, at the risk of relitagating the LHG example yet again.

Two BGs of LH shoot at an enemy BG. One LH BG is disrupted. How many shooting dice: 4 or 3?

In other words does the disrupted LH BG taint all the shooting dice, or just its own (in the latter case having no effect because you can't lose one per 3 when you only have two dice)?

[hammy]

OK, at the risk of relitagating the LHG example yet again.

Two BGs of LH shoot at an enemy BG. One LH BG is disrupted. How many shooting dice: 4 or 3?

In other words does the disrupted LH BG taint all the shooting dice, or just its own (in the latter case having no effect because you can't lose one per 3 when you only have two dice)?

4

You have 2 disrupted dice and 2 non disrupted dice. As you don't have three disrupted dice you have nothing to lose

Now if you had said 2 disrupted, 1 disordered and 1 normal you would have gotten a different answer.

[rbodleyscott]

Weakness is just another asset in the arsenal.

I have read the rules concerning elephants and such and it surprises me that in other BG relationship measurements the MU is used except for shifting but in this case the base width crops up to give a split description of the BG. If I were describing the influence of elephants and such, I would have the BG disordered.

But at least now I understand and accept.

RobKhan

The reason for the way the rule is is that it allows armies with elephants to place their cavalry (who one might assume would be more used to them than other armies) adjacent to the elephants without losing any combat dice. (Only 2 bases disordered, so no dice lost).

Enemy cavalry fighting elephants, however, will usually lose a dice.

[RobKhan]

Thanks Richard, this is most enlightening. No-one I game with has run elephants or camels yet so the intricacies of this rule are new to me.

By the way, try as I may, I cannot find the FAQ anywhere. Plenty of chat about it but no actual FAQ.

TIA

RobKhan