Shifting

[andy816]

When does a battle group perform a shift in the movement phase? I only ask because a BG of 2 elephants (in a recent practice game) on two occasions were able to avoid the within 6MU rule by shifting before the end of their full movement forward.

We could not find anything clear within the rules about this although we both thought the inference suggested a shift happened at the end of the move.

Whilst on the topic of shifting un-drilled troops can crab quite a distance sideways infact one BG of elephants used this method to get to a position in 3 moves that was further than possible using wheels and didn't have to worry about any adverse CMT results. This just felt a little strange.

Cheers

Andy Robinson

[lawrenceg]

I only ask because a BG of 2 elephants (in a recent practice game) on two occasions were able to avoid the within 6MU rule by shifting before the end of their full movement forward.

The shifting rules say there must be "no enemy within 6 MUs at any point in the move."

So you are not allowed to shift early in the move if later on in the same move you go within 6 MUs of the enemy. Not sure if this is what your opponent did, or if you are describing some kind of "slalem" to avoid going within 6 MU.

As the rules don't currently specify when shifting is to take place, I see no reason why the shift shouldn't be allowed to occur at any point or points during the move as desired by the moving player.

In reality such a shift would probably be achieved by an incline or drift over the course of the whole move - so the path would be more or less a straight line from the starting to finishing position. One could specify that players must check the entire area swept out by the BG moving on this path, but I think it is more practical to allow some flexibility.

P.S. Re-reading this rule has made me realise that a BL of BG with different speeds can never do such a shift.

[shall]

P.S. Re-reading this rule has made me realise that a BL of BG with different speeds can never do such a shift.

Correct and deliberate, nor can a BG wheel as theyw ont move full Again deliberate. Shifts are designed to be straight forward minor redeployment means that are fast before the real fighting starts, and are therefore pretty limited in avalability. As it represents a sort of incline the rules are written to prohibit and incline/wheel and to allow only troops who move at the same natural speed to incline together.

Si

[jre]

But the recent rules change says now they can:

A mixed BL moves at speed of its slowest troops and counts as having moved full distance if it moves the full distance of its slowest troops.

I do not mind much, as it actually saves time moving BGs and discussions on if wheels are done well or if they should be re-measured.

An up to a half base shift to conform to a another BG and form a battle line would be nice. Currently it works if the moving BG is too close to the other BG, but not if it is a bit too far away. Makes it quite hard to reform a line with the enemy close. Unless that is the author's intention.

Jos?©

[rbodleyscott]

But the recent rules change says now they can:

Indeed, that was hastily put in yesterday without full discussion after seeing Lawrence's comment - which I thought pointed out an unintended anomaly. I had not realised it was deliberate!

Assume that is the rule for Ascot, but it may get changed back again after the authors have had a chance to discuss it.

[andy816]

[The shifting rules say there must be "no enemy within 6 MUs at any point in the move."

So you are not allowed to shift early in the move if later on in the same move you go within 6 MUs of the enemy. Not sure if this is what your opponent did, or if you are describing some kind of "slalem" to avoid going within 6 MU.

[/quote]

When I was talking about when to shift the following is an example of a move i made.

A BG of 2 elephants were on an extreme flank advancing forward. If they moved 4MU straight forward they would come within 6MU of enemy so could not shift at the end of the move. If the moved 2 MU straight forward and then shifted 1 base width and advanced another 2MU straight forward they did not come within 6MU of enemy at any point during the move, but still made a full move which allows the shift. Can it be done this way or not?

Cheers

Andy Robinsion

[rbodleyscott]

When I was talking about when to shift the following is an example of a move i made.

A BG of 2 elephants were on an extreme flank advancing forward. If they moved 4MU straight forward they would come within 6MU of enemy so could not shift at the end of the move. If the moved 2 MU straight forward and then shifted 1 base width and advanced another 2MU straight forward they did not come within 6MU of enemy at any point during the move, but still made a full move which allows the shift. Can it be done this way or not?

As the rules presently stand, yes.

Though it probably needs clarification. (And the clarification might turn out to be that the shift is done at the end).

[shall]

Ah I see Richard and I were a bit at cross purposes.

Delibrate it may have been but that is no reason not to relax it a bit if we want to. Good to test it more relaxed in Ascot and decide thereafter.

Just on my wheeling point:

A mixed BG can wheel

It was a wheel with a shift I was refering to as all bases don't move full speed in a wheel

Si

[andy816]

When I was talking about when to shift the following is an example of a move i made.

A BG of 2 elephants were on an extreme flank advancing forward. If they moved 4MU straight forward they would come within 6MU of enemy so could not shift at the end of the move. If the moved 2 MU straight forward and then shifted 1 base width and advanced another 2MU straight forward they did not come within 6MU of enemy at any point during the move, but still made a full move which allows the shift. Can it be done this way or not?

As the rules presently stand, yes.

Though it probably needs clarification. (And the clarification might turn out to be that the shift is done at the end).

My two penneth FWIW would be to prefer that shifting is only allowed at the end of the full move forward. Stops micro measurement and maintains simplicity.

cheers

andy

[rbodleyscott]

My two penneth FWIW would be to prefer that shifting is only allowed at the end of the full move forward. Stops micro measurement and maintains simplicity.

But renders the half shift to avoid obstacles useless. So, if we want consistency (which corresponds to simplicity) it should be the same for both full and half shifts. That is, if we can live with the faint whiff of cheese you outlined.

[andy816]

My two penneth FWIW would be to prefer that shifting is only allowed at the end of the full move forward. Stops micro measurement and maintains simplicity.

But renders the half shift to avoid obstacles useless. So, if we want consistency (which corresponds to simplicity) it should be the same for both full and half shifts. That is, if we can live with the faint whiff of cheese you outlined.

Ah yes. A bit of a dilema. So glad i'm not a rules author

[rogerg]

With shifting being allowed throughout the move, is there now any need to have a double wheel move? Rule that no move may have more then a single wheel, unless a column, and take the double wheel line out of the table. This makes that quite complex table a bit less so and removes one of the ugliest bits of measuring and calculation from the game.

A shift should suffice to do any aligning made necessary to avoid conforming troops or whatever. If someone gets into a position where they need to double wheel, then that is poor play. Being obliged to make two single wheel moves instead does not seem unreasonable.

[stevoid]

Can I just confirm that this thread was resolved with:

1. Shifts (half or full) can be made any time in a move that is otherwise straight ahead for the full distance.

2. Full distance for mixed BGs is the speed of the slowest (with regard the terrain it is in) and that mxed BGs therefore qualify for shiftint.

Cheers,

Steve

[madcam2us]

so with the final book released and something I can't find,

WHEN DOES THE SHIFT OCCUR????

START, MIDDLE, OR END OF THE MOVE????

madcam.

[Blathergut]

anytime, as long as full MUs are done...seems to me logically it would happen when you needed it on the battlefield....get around that clump of stuff there...get past those dudes here...as long as your guys move their full, shift at any point...

[expendablecinc]

But the recent rules change says now they can:

Indeed, that was hastily put in yesterday without full discussion after seeing Lawrence's comment - which I thought pointed out an unintended anomaly. I had not realised it was deliberate!

Assume that is the rule for Ascot, but it may get changed back again after the authors have had a chance to discuss it.

I think its a neat little correction. It defeats the added value of the slide speeding up the game and preventing the need for pain in the bum wheels and minor mocro moves to line up enemy.

eg often my seleucid phalanx has a BG of LH glued to its front and/or a line of supporting troops glued to its rear. I think that as these are one solid mass the slight shift as the angry mob moves directly ahead should be permissable.

The same goes for a line of Knights in the centre and two BGs of sergeants (Cav lancers) on the flanks of the BL. when these start their slot troot to the enemy front for a clash I think the entire group should be able to do the shift.

[madcam2us]

someone tell Mohio his head is getting a bit big after the IWF.....

Two for the home team!

Madcam

[Polkovnik]

What are where are the recent rules changes referred to above ?

[Blathergut]

make note of the dates

[philqw78]

What are where are the recent rules changes referred to above ?

More like when are. At least 15months ago, so probably before publication.