evade and VMD ?

zeitoun · Post by **zeitoun** » Sun May 08, 2011 5:45 pm

Hi sorry if this question was asked before...

LH facing Down at 8 MU of

LF facing Down at 5 MU of

LH facing UP

If

charge , Do

must decide before the VMD is roll if she want to evade or Not ???? In my opinion No but some other players tell me that the LH must declare if she evade or not before the VMD is roll.

nikgaukroger · Post by **nikgaukroger** » Sun May 08, 2011 6:06 pm

You decide whether to evade before rolling the VMD - you only roll if you are evading after all.

hazelbark · Post by **hazelbark** » Sun May 08, 2011 6:07 pm

The sequence is pretty clear.

1st you declare charges and who is the target
2nd those targets choose to evade and you adjudicate that.

revealed and otherwise "new" targets don't decide until they would be the target of the charge.

So in this case. No. The unit 8 mu appears to have a directly intervening unit that prevents it from being targeted. Also it is not within range.

If the intervening unit evades and if the chrager rolls up on the VMD, then the new unit becomes a target and must decide.

zeitoun · Post by **zeitoun** » Sun May 08, 2011 6:13 pm

yes but the

is not in the "normal charge move " of

so for me is :

decide to charge

decide to evade

not involve because not in normal charge range of

make VMD and move

make VMD and move
If

VMD iS +1 or +2 then

decide or not to evade. then roll VMD
If

VMD is short then

didn't have choice it must stay.

zeitoun · Post by **zeitoun** » Sun May 08, 2011 6:15 pm

hazelbark wrote:The sequence is pretty clear.

1st you declare charges and who is the target
2nd those targets choose to evade and you adjudicate that.

revealed and otherwise "new" targets don't decide until they would be the target of the charge.

So in this case. No. The unit 8 mu appears to have a directly intervening unit that prevents it from being targeted. Also it is not within range.

If the intervening unit evades and if the chrager rolls up on the VMD, then the new unit becomes a target and must decide.

this is my opinion to. thanks

zoltan · Post by **zoltan** » Mon May 09, 2011 1:26 am

The strict order of events in the RAW implies that ALL evade moves must be decided before the chargers throw their VMD dice. However, Zeitoun's gives an example of the often discussed endless loop.

IMO Zeitoun is correct. As the chargers start 8 MU away from the LH, the LH only have to decide whether or not to evade once the chargers' VMD indicates that they will contact the LH if they stand. Unless the chargers throw a 5 or 6 on their VMD dice their is no reason (or option) for the LH to chose to make an evade move. However, once the chargers have thrown their VMD dice, the RAW imply it is too late for any evade choices.

In my experience it is generally played that the RAW are ignored and the LH still have the option to evade (if the chargers throw 5 or 6).

hazelbark · Post by **hazelbark** » Mon May 09, 2011 2:24 am

From the FAQ

vii) TROOPS REVEALED BY EVADERS WHEN CHARGING
What happens if a BG evades and a new potential target is revealed in normal charge range?
First the initial target evades. Then any other BG that is in the path of the initial charge (direction and range) becomes a
target, is charged and responds itself. You do not wheel to chase the evaders unless all targets evade out of the original
path, so if the new target stands this does not apply. In essence a revealed BG just becomes a normal target at that point
and is dealt with normally.
VMDs only apply if ALL targets evade. So if the revealed target stands and is in range there is no need to take a VMD roll
for the chargers as you only do this at the time you move if all targets have evaded.

zoltan · Post by **zoltan** » Mon May 09, 2011 3:22 am

hazelbark wrote:From the FAQ
vii) TROOPS REVEALED BY EVADERS WHEN CHARGING
What happens if a BG evades and a new potential target is revealed in normal charge range?
First the initial target evades. Then any other BG that is in the path of the initial charge (direction and range) becomes a
target, is charged and responds itself. You do not wheel to chase the evaders unless all targets evade out of the original
path, so if the new target stands this does not apply. In essence a revealed BG just becomes a normal target at that point
and is dealt with normally.
VMDs only apply if ALL targets evade. So if the revealed target stands and is in range there is no need to take a VMD roll
for the chargers as you only do this at the time you move if all targets have evaded.

Zeitoun said in his original post that the LH was 8MU from the chargers. Thus, I don't think this FAQ would come into play as the requirement of the second sentence is NOT met, "... a new potential target is revealed in normal charge range..."

In this case, the LH are NOT in the path of the initial charge (direction and range) and therefore they are not a target of the charge. At this point they do not need to (indeed are not permitted to) respond to the charge.

Then the chargers VMD (because ALL their targets have evaded) and they throw a 5 or 6. Suddenly, the LH have become a (new) target of the chargers. But its too late; we've gone past charge responses. Do the LH simply get hit? Or can they now chose to evade?

philqw78 · Post by **philqw78** » Mon May 09, 2011 8:26 am

They evade if they wish.

thefrenchjester · Post by **thefrenchjester** » Mon May 09, 2011 2:44 pm

Hi,

the problem is to know : when

must decide if he evade and when he do his evade move because

is in the vmd so he can be cacth by

nobody seems to be clear on this;

in France when I Umpire a tournament :

must decide after the declaration of charge of

if he want to evade and do the evade move in the same time of

because

is in the VMD possible of

and

do his VMD for his charge in the order of the RAW.

hope Richard or Terry can give us the answer for this;

Best Regards

thefrenchjester "better if all of us play the same game

"

ShrubMiK · Post by **ShrubMiK** » Mon May 09, 2011 2:52 pm

>nobody seems to be clear on this;

I don't think that is true - I think a large majority of players play it as per hazelbark's initial post.

thefrenchjester · Post by **thefrenchjester** » Mon May 09, 2011 5:06 pm

sorry I made a mistake: everybody think is right;-)
that's why I need to be sure that I'm not wrong when I umpire , I hope you can understand my problem, I just want to be sure, to make a message on the French Forum to clarify the situation and to make my apologises if I made a misinterpretation of the rules up to there in the games;

Best Regards

thefrenchjester " quest of the truth "

PS: Dave is correct (" thefrenchjester perhaps sometimes

")

ShrubMiK · Post by **ShrubMiK** » Tue May 10, 2011 12:25 pm

Sure, understood. I appreciate being the umpire is a bit different from when we argue rules points in a club game

There do seem to be a few issues that get discussed again and again, and perhaps a FAQ update would help. although I suppose the chances of that are fairly small....hopefully V2 will help!

petedalby · Post by **petedalby** » Wed May 11, 2011 11:56 am

Hi Gilles - I believe that Olivier is correct - sorry.

IMO

doesn't have to decide upon their course of action until after

have thrown their VMD. If

don't throw up on their VMD then

have no choice to make.

thefrenchjester · Post by **thefrenchjester** » Wed May 11, 2011 4:41 pm

Hi Pete,

thanks for the reply, so seems to be played like that in Great britain; I'll send a message on the French forum on this thread, the most important thing is play the same game;

Best Regards

Gilles " the unmasked frenchjester

"

ps:" Dave is correct

olivier too

"

olivier · Post by **olivier** » Wed May 11, 2011 7:42 pm

Hmm. This interp open an another can of worm.
If

Legally

a in range of the charge so they are subject to the charge and consequently can't intercept

If you decide to wait the VMD to see if

can be target of charge,

can intercept

as intercept move are before charge move.
If you decide

are valid target for the charge, he must decide before the VMD if he stay or evade and cannot move to intercept

I m a bit dubious about LH waiting on spot a charge of Kn and laughing because they are 2 MM too short

[/b]

philqw78 · Post by **philqw78** » Wed May 11, 2011 8:21 pm

Intercepts are moved before evades. So they could never intercept.

If the BG were off set like this

_____

__

Then if

was <4 MU from the front of

and more than 2 MU from its front it could intercept.

It could not be a target as it could not be stepped into and it could intercept by moving forward 4.

Sequence would be

Declares charge

Moves iits intercept

evades

charges

Simples

olivier · Post by **olivier** » Wed May 11, 2011 9:48 pm

Phil,
In my example,

and

charge up

face right.
If

is a legal target he can't intercept

; if not it's a flank interception!

zeitoun · Post by **zeitoun** » Wed May 11, 2011 10:07 pm

in this situation I will play like this :

and

decide to charge.

decide to stand or evade. If is evade roll VMD to see his movement .
Then roll VMD for

to see if

became target of charge. If not he can intercept.

Then move interceptors
move evaders..
move chargers....

petedalby · Post by **petedalby** » Thu May 12, 2011 7:34 am

I m a bit dubious about LH waiting on spot a charge of Kn and laughing because they are 2 MM too short

Hi Olivier - good to see that you are still carrying all before you.

One other thing to consider.

In a pursuit, LH starting beyond 4MU of pursuing Knights, don't have to make their evade decision until the Kn have thrown their VMD. For me, this is no different?