Delaying French partisans a couple of turns.

NotaPacifist · Post by **NotaPacifist** » Wed Apr 27, 2011 9:43 am

Recently I made a post about losing my carrier due to bad timing, programming, and bad luck. Mikko, my opponent, generously offered me a do-over to recoup my carrier. On the Do-over, at the fall of France, a large variety (four figures, 10SP's) partisan unit spawned in Cherbourg. Could we instate enough of a delay to keep events like this from happening before a player can move into occupied territory? Please.

For fairness sake, I moved the offending French demon-spawn out of Cherbourg to be killed at Mikko's leisure.

PionUrpo · Post by **PionUrpo** » Wed Apr 27, 2011 10:23 am

It's more of a very unlikely annoyance instead of a real problem but I'd like to have a chance to garrison cities for one turn. However, even if it's possible to change without much coding, better leave it unless yet another hotfix is coming.

pk867 · Post by **pk867** » Wed Apr 27, 2011 10:43 am

Hi
I do not see a problem. The gaming gods have it in for you

.
In the 40+ plus games I have played maybe in 1 or 2
Had a partisan appear and take a city on the first turn after capture.
Look at it lilt this that groups not attached or with the government that
Surrendered decides to keep fighting. This is realistic.

PionUrpo · Post by **PionUrpo** » Wed Apr 27, 2011 11:08 am

Hehe. Yeah, like I said merely an annoyance and indeed realistic. Gaming gods have recently been more against me weather- not so much partisanwise. I guess
they changed their mind

IIRC hasn't happened to me before anyway but a 10step partisan takes surprising commitment in Bordeaux, Brest or Cherbourg.

schwerpunkt · Post by **schwerpunkt** » Wed Apr 27, 2011 1:29 pm

pk867 wrote:Hi
I do not see a problem. The gaming gods have it in for you .
In the 40+ plus games I have played maybe in 1 or 2
Had a partisan appear and take a city on the first turn after capture.
Look at it lilt this that groups not attached or with the government that
Surrendered decides to keep fighting. This is realistic.

Yes, I've had it happen once in Yugoslavia - Split I think it was. Had to trudge through the mountains to get it and use German INF because its readiness was good of course.

NotaPacifist · Post by **NotaPacifist** » Wed Apr 27, 2011 7:54 pm

Look, guys. It ain't realistic, no matter how little a problem you see with it. Resistance movements take time to organise. They aren't mushrooms that pop up out of the ground overnight. And since this is a 40K-50K sized unit, easily reinforceable by your opponent, it's a big matter. How much bad luck does one have to take before something becomes to much of a pain in the rear (not fun) to bother with?

You guys say you want to 'simulate'. What's being simulated here? I've played this game from both sides, and given my opinions/ideas for both sides. It isn't realistic/fair/fun/right. It is exploitable/irritating/annoying.

"Look at it lilt this that groups not attached or with the government that
Surrendered decides to keep fighting. This is realistic." <- And which 40K-50K Frenchmen did this? Those escaping with the remnants of the BEF? Tell me, how did the French resistance arm itself?
Don't bother, I'll tell you. Over time they were supplied by air drops from Britain, and they took weapons from the Germans. How could they take weapons from the Germans when the Germans haven't even got there yet? How could they have been supplied from Britain at a time when every weapon was needed for home defence...when weapons had to be hurriedly ordered from Canada and the US just to arm the Home Guard? When a resistance movement hadn't had time to organise so the Brits knew where to send weapons?

This was the 1940's, not some Hollywood writer's dream. This was not a group of people who'd been under occupation's boot long enough to know what to do about it. They were still in shock at the failure of their army and government to do much more than weep.

pk867 · Post by **pk867** » Wed Apr 27, 2011 8:05 pm

Hi
The graphic shows 5 figures, but partisans are the same capabilities
Of GARs. We just made the graphic for the larger partisan countries.
So this is not 40K to 50K combatants.

NotaPacifist · Post by **NotaPacifist** » Wed Apr 27, 2011 8:18 pm

The point is, how much complaining do you want after release? We're supposed to be building something realistic and enjoyable. Where there are arguments and counter-arguments to what's realistic, things like this just suck the fun right out of it.

Peter Stauffenberg · Post by **Peter Stauffenberg** » Wed Apr 27, 2011 9:20 pm

I don't see the problem here. Just after the fall of France I have a lot of Axis units in France waiting to be railed somewhere. If a partisan spawns then I just use a few corps units to finish it off and gain some XP. The spawn rate in France in 1940 is very low.

Partisans are not just soldiers fighting the occupying country. Partisans are more like sabotage operations, forcing the occupier to keep a garrison in the area. The spawn rate in cities is very low so the risk of getting a partisan in a French city is not high. I think the chance is 3 per 10000 in clear hexes and 18 per 10000 in non-clear hexes in 1940. The chance increases by 1 per year after 1940. This is for conquered countries. For non conquered countries the chance for partisans are doubled.

Let's say you have 10 French cities not garrisoned on the turn of French surrender. Then you have the following chance getting a partisan in one of them.

(1 - (10000-3) / 10000) ^ 10) * 100% = 0.3%

So what you're talking about is something that happens in one of 300 games.

I always garrison coastal French cities to prevent the British from exploiting that they're lost. We specifically added quite a bit of German garrisons and Axis minor units so they can be used as garrisons. If you send all you have towards Russian then you do it at the risk of not being able to control the partisans.

I don't see what's the problem with getting a partisan here and there. You just deal with it and finish off the partisans. It's not like the Allies can exploit the situation in 1940. OK, you need to send a German corps unit towards the partisan in 1940, but so what?

We added partisans in occupied countries to make sure the occupying countries actually placed a decent garrison force there. If you look at the OOB's you will see that Germany had quite a lot of forces in the rear in countries like France. Axis minors dealt with partisans in Greece and Yugoslavia and also Russia. I think this works very well in GS v2.00. If you deal with the partisans when they show up you can easily contain them. If you ignore them for several turns you might see more spawning that you can deal with. That means you must send reinforcements that was intended for the front line.

The partisans are actually garrisons and most of them appear at less than full strength. They usually pop-up with strength like 3-4. A full strength garrison is about 10k-15k soldifers. So a 3 strength garrison is about 3k-4k soldiers. That's way less than the 40k-50k you're talking about.

NotaPacifist · Post by **NotaPacifist** » Wed Apr 27, 2011 9:37 pm

I'm not asking for an end to partisans. I'm asking for 2 turns for the axis to garrison it's captured French port cities before partisans start popping up in them.

Peter Stauffenberg · Post by **Peter Stauffenberg** » Wed Apr 27, 2011 9:47 pm

As I told you it happens in one of 300 games. Most likely the British will send the air units to the important coastal cities so you need to capture them anyway. If you look at the real Case Yellow you will see that the Germans continued to fight against the French after the fall of France and had to move even down to Bordeaux and Brest before France finally surrendered. In GS v2.00 the French surrender a bit early and maybe you have to send an armor unit after a few ports to gain control.

So if you're unlucky and get a partisan in the city you just have to destroy it. Why should we create a special rule for a situation that happens in one out of 300 games.
If the consequences had been big then we would have to deal with it. Just like units coming out of the Suez canal could prevent the British CV from spawning. THAT is a serious flaw. Getting a partisan in a coastal city is not detrimental to the Axis plans. You just need one turn to get rid of the partisan using one of your units.

Look here for an animation:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/interactiv ... mbed.shtml

You will see that the armistice was made when the Germans had taken Lyons, Brest, Nantes and almost Bordeaux. Do we see that in GS v2.00? Rarely. We see the French surrender when Paris falls and only some German units capture the French ports being held by British air units when France surrendered.

Plaid · Post by **Plaid** » Fri Apr 29, 2011 9:31 pm

Never park naval unit in ungarrisoned port - it helps, really. Even if not a partisan, paratroopers can jump there...and goodbye battleship, yes.