Kursk (And what I learned about Multiplayer PzC)

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Kerensky
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Kursk (And what I learned about Multiplayer PzC)

Post by Kerensky »

My conclusions about Multiplayer for the Dev team to consider:
1. Mystery is important.
What does that mean? It means when I played Kursk with Razz1, I had absolutely no idea what to expect. I made a conscious effort to NOT load the Kursk scenario in single player, turn off fog, and note exactly where all the Soviet units started and what they were. For example, I was constantly worried about my lone Stuka get ambushed and killed, so I always gave it a good escort even if that meant my 109 wasn't being used to strafe a target. In the end, it turns out the Soviet player had 0 air units, and Razz1 never bought one either. Had I known this before hand, it would have changed my play considerably because I know that fighters are extremely expensive, and the danger of my opponent every buying a brand new one(especially if he knows I start with 3 109s) is extremely slim.
On the other hand, I've played Low Countries several times, both as Axis and Allies, and our multiplayer game of Low Countries was a completely forgone conclusion. I knew the Allies had some advantages, but more than that, I knew exactly how many German units there were, where they were, and what they were. I know that if I ever play Low Countries as the Germans(past the knowledge I'm at a severe disadvantage), I have to watch out for 1 Allied tactical bomber, 4 allied fighters, 1 British engineer, 1 British Tank, et cetera.
How do you recreate mystery in a set piece scenario?
My answer is this: When you go to balance your multiplayer scenarios, strip the map of units, give each side only minimal starting forces. At the same time, give both players large starting prestige pools and plenty of room to buy additional core units.
If I play a scenario and know my opponent has 500 prestige, 1 core slots available, 12 infantry, 2 tanks, 4 artillery, 3 AD, 2 fighters, 1 tactical bomber, and 1 recon, the scenario has lost it's mystery. There is only so much 500 prestige can change.
If I play the same scenario where my opponent has 5000 prestige, 10 core slots available, 6 infantry, 1 tank, 2 artillery, 1 AD, 1 fighter, and 0 tactical bombers.... I have no idea what my opponent could wield against me. I won't be able to dump all my prestige into units, because if I do that, my enemy will buy counters to my purchases, and I'll be at a severe disadvantage. So I will buy just enough units to overcome what I know of my enemy, and I will hold a healthy reserve until I see a critical need for a specific unit and I'll buy it.
Or maybe I'll blow all my 5k prestige immediately, and hope to 'blitz' my opponent before he has a chance to react and consider what to buy to counter my forces.
Mystery adds replay value.

2. Historical battles can make good multiplayer foundations.
Kursk. Kursk is a fantastic example of this phenomenon. Except it was reversed. The German player had access to masses of units(my cheap marders, nashorns, and recon cars), while the Soviet player had access to the ultimate unit (A KV-1 which not even a Panther or Tiger could fight toe to toe with and win).
So don't be afraid to make a unit 'overpowered' so long as it has a valid counter. Maybe a Tiger II is going to be an unstoppable and unkillable behemoth, but if it's made to be so outrageously expensive, the player cannot afford to buy too many of them, otherwise you will have what happened in Kursk. A small number of near unkillable units were out maneuvered and surrounded by a numerically superior force of inferior quality units.

3. Multiplayer scenarios (and campaigns hopefully) should be built from the ground up with the express intent of multiplayer play.

Or at the very least, you shouldn't try to use a single player VS AI scenario and attempt to make it work for both single player and multiplayer. I bet I could beat the AI on impossible setting in Low Countries, it wouldn't be fun or easy, but I bet I could do it. I really don't think I'd be able to beat another human being at Low Countries, unless I was given serious prestige advantages or my opponent was, for lack of a better word, a complete and utter moron with no grasp of the mechanics of Panzer Corps. If that was the case though, I wouldn't beat such a player over the head, I would prefer that player have an environment to learn the game before jumping into multiplayer battles. Which brings me to my next point.

4. There needs to be a filter to prevent brand new players from getting absolutely crushed and destroyed by veterans who are only looking for an easy win to inflate their record and ego.
Front Mission Evolved had this problem. The skill curve of that game was gigantic, the difference between a flat footed newbie and a pro was the difference between a PZIA and a King Tiger. However there were no controls, the King Tigers and PZIAs all fought each other, and often against each other as well. What's that? You've never heard of Front Mission Evolved? Exactly my point.

Those are some of the conclusions I've come to, so far. I'm sure there will be more, but I leave you these as food for thought for now.



Do the Soviets really have zero aircraft? I keep expecting to see them eventually, but it seems to be 3 109s and a Stuka vs nothing. The Germans have every advantage in this scenario, healthy starting prestige, strong starting forces(panthers and tigers), apparently complete control of the skies, but I'm probably going to lose.

Why? Because the current KV-1 is an unkillable behemoth that panthers and tigers are useless against, and I think Razz figured that out.
Image

I have almost half of the game turns left, there are only two VHes left to take, and I've killed almost every other Soviet unit with little difficulty, but I'm pretty sure I won't be able to take on those 5 KV-1s and grab that one VH.

If (when) you rebalance the KV-1 defense values to not be near invulnerable to Panthers and Tigers(or up the Tiger/Panther Hard Attack), Kursk will be an absolute steamroll for the German player in it's current form.

EDIT: Wow, this game turned out to be pretty epic. I'm actually really excited to finish it.
Last edited by Kerensky on Thu Apr 21, 2011 2:27 am, edited 6 times in total.
Kerensky
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Post by Kerensky »

This space intentionally left blank.
Last edited by Kerensky on Wed Apr 20, 2011 10:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Razz1
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Post by Razz1 »

I would bump up the prestige per turn by 5 for the Russians.
Add another AA with truck.
Reduce starting prestige to 450 for the Germans.

I don't think they want the Russians to have air power.

Plus fix the tank balance.
Obsolete
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Post by Obsolete »

Do the Soviets really have zero aircraft?
LOL, when I read that last night, I thought you mean Japanese Zero planes.

I just realized now what you meant.
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Experience Ratio = (def exp level + 2)/(att exp level + 2)
Entrenchment Ratio = (def entr rate + 1) /(att entr rate + 1)
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Post by Kerensky »

Last we left off, the unstoppable behemoths that are the KV-1s had formed a nearly impenetrable defense around the city of Kursk itself.

After four grueling turns, little has changed. The five un-killable KV-1s abandoned Kursk to the fascist invaders, but they have recaptured the city of Olkhovatka.
Image
(Razz note my prestige is 14, I took this screenshot just before I hit end turn)

In doing so, however, the lumber giants that are the KV-1s have exposed Lgov to attack, and German units pour past their shield of Panthers and Tiger tank to bypass the blocked KV-1s.
Realizing the danger, the two Western most KV-1s and a KV-2 swing south in an attempt to relieve Lgov, but their efforts are stymied by a valiant screen unit of recon cars.
Image
(Razz note my prestige is now 19, I took this screenshot at the beginning of turn 15. In other words, I get 5 prestige per turn + whatever I earn from capturing cities)

The isolated defenders of Lgov quickly fall before a concentrated artillery, airborne, and infantry assault. In the north at Olkhovatka, a previously unstoppable KV-1 finally meets its doom, completely encircled by German armor and assaulted by the very last of the Wehrmacht's infantry reserve. (I spent the very last drops of my prestige to get that HW unit to 10 strength and I bought a Wehr 43 infantry unit as well)
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But the glory of recapturing Olkhovatka falls to the Tigers, who now stand ready to repulse any possible Soviet attempt to retake the city, as the remaining German units scramble to isolate and trap the remaining Soviet KV-1s.
Image

With the final Victory Hex and vital Russian city firmly in German hands, the Germans need to hold their objectives for a single day to achieve victory. Can they do it, or is there an unknown Soviet menace lurking in the fog?
http://img816.imageshack.us/img816/7673/kurskfinal.jpg
Last edited by Kerensky on Thu Apr 21, 2011 2:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Kerensky »

Some after action discussion I was having about this scenario. Bolded the highlights.

[2:57:42 PM] Kerensky: Even with, I think he has 7, of Razz1's invulnerable KV-1s
[2:57:44 PM] Kerensky: I think I'm going to actually win
[2:57:57 PM] Kerensky: I baited his tanks away from the VHs I needed to capture
[2:58:07 PM] Kerensky: And then trapped them with a flood of cheap units to generate ZOC
[2:58:29 PM] Kerensky: Then I rushed my remaining artillery and infantry through my screen to his last remaining VH
[2:59:47 PM] Kerensky: You'll notice that in the 4 turns separating the two pictures
[2:59:53 PM] Kerensky: I've killed none of his KV units
[3:00:04 PM] Kerensky: But I've out maneuvered them and trapped them
[3:00:35 PM] Kerensky: Now I'm poised to take the last VH occupied by his infantry unit
[3:00:55 PM] Kerensky: And I'm going to retake the NorthEast VH with 2 fresh infantry units I just bought with the last of my prestige
[3:01:05 PM] Kerensky: (Inf can actually kill KV1s in city fighting, thank goodness)
[3:01:30 PM] Kerensky: And you see my panther and nashorn are sitting there as a screen, as are most of my armored units
[3:01:42 PM] Kerensky: Units are still 'active' because I dont shoot the KV1s, I just move next to them and block them
[3:02:22 PM] Kerensky: A very exciting game, even if it's really weird and all backwards
[3:02:50 PM] Kerensky: Bottom line, what does it tell you when:
[3:03:48 PM] Kerensky: Soviet player has control of an unkillable unit(KV1), and has multiple units worth of that invulnerable type(there are LOTS of KV1s, and I bet he bought more too)
[3:03:58 PM] Kerensky: But the German player still manages a victory


[3:04:33 PM] Kerensky: To me, it means: This scenario will be completely unbalanced in favor of the Germans when the KV1 is rebalanced to be normal and not an unkillable behemoth

[3:06:07 PM] Mr. X: How did you bait his tanks away from his VH?
[3:06:24 PM] Kerensky: I gave him irrestistable targets to hunt down
[3:06:41 PM] Kerensky: Things like trucked units in the middle of the open
[3:06:59 PM] Kerensky: Just in perfect range of his KV unit sight radius
[3:07:15 PM] Kerensky: I intentionally parked weak units 2 hexes away from him so he's destroy them
[3:07:32 PM] Kerensky: Plus I think he got a little greedy, he wanted to retake that northeast victory hex
[3:07:47 PM] Kerensky: Which created an opening my faster panthers could exploit 7 speed vs 4 speed KV 1
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Post by Obsolete »

I tried to give the 42 campaign another go today. Quit in frustration again as in the first scenario the KVs were just too over-powered to dent.

I even had one totally surrouded by tanks, and had its ammo empty. Yet with all the initiative of all my tanks surrounding it, I STILL coudlnt get a damn scratch.
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Post by Kerensky »

Obsolete wrote:I tried to give the 42 campaign another go today. Quit in frustration again as in the first scenario the KVs were just too over-powered to dent.

I even had one totally surrouded by tanks, and had its ammo empty. Yet with all the initiative of all my tanks surrounding it, I STILL coudlnt get a damn scratch.
The only time I ever killed one, it was with an infantry assaulting a KV-1 entrenched in a city. Outside of that situation, they pretty much are unkillable, and the only way to fight them is to neutralize them. For all intents and game play purposes, they really are unkillable.
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Post by Razz1 »

1 Supply needs to be fixed. Perhaps we should get 70% rounded up if not 100%.

I made a mistake 3rd from last turn. I could have made the game last two more turns perhaps more.. very close to a win.

Other than the minor tweak I mentioned above for balance I found out the 233Rad is too powerful.

Bring down the initiative to 7.

2
For tank balance here are the numbers after several tests.

Panthers and Tigers need to switch for HA

Panther D 17
Panther A 17
Panther G 17
Tiger I 19

KV-1A GD 18
KV-1B GD 21
KV-1C GD 22
KV-2 GD 22 HA 11 Fuel 65

GD at 22 may prove to be too weak over the long run. Perhaps 23

233Rad initiative 7, perhaps increase the cost.

It was fun!

3
This map can be used for MP but it has to be copied and changed as there is know way you can balance this map for both the AI and the human.

In fact I believe MP maps will have to be different.

4 Balance for AI
Still with the recommended changes in tank balance plus change in prestige by 5 and the truck with ART... the AI will be more challenging for both sides.

5
For low countries... the PZIIc would always fire and miss. Near the end, even though the tank fired, it expended zero Ammo. (For Obsolete that is not the Japanese ammunition.) Mu ha ha.....

The allies have too much in Low countries.
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Post by Kerensky »

The second game is Kursk is playing out very differently. I think both players seriously overestimated the supposed invulnerability of the KV-1.
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Post by Obsolete »

I think both players seriously overestimated the supposed invulnerability of the KV-1.
The only time I was able to put some decent dents on one was by nailing it on a river IIRC.

That... and a little bit of luck. Or maybe.. a LOT of luck that was.
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Post by Razz1 »

Its easy.. just run them out of Ammo and keep a unit next to them and them can not re-supply.

Two units prevent them from reinforcing.

Really stupid supply rules now.

Wait until you get in multi player and you will see how bad it is.
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Post by Kerensky »

Razz1 wrote:Its easy.. just run them out of Ammo and keep a unit next to them and them can not re-supply.

Two units prevent them from reinforcing.

Really stupid supply rules now.

Wait until you get in multi player and you will see how bad it is.
lol sorry :oops:
This is my way of drawing attention to problems. I beat people over the head with 'abuse' so they cry loudly enough for balance devs to take notice.
Kerensky wrote:Except for the advantage of pressure that is being applied. The pressure that causes an AD unit to move in order to counter a bomber. The pressure that causes your ground units to redeploy against a potential paradrop. I hope your units weren't entrenched, because you pissed it all away trying to chase off something that moves 10 times as fast. Sounds like the perfect feint to me.

If you re-deploy your units to counter, you lose all your positioning and entrenchment, and the air units can just fly off and do other tasks elsewhere. If you do nothing, well we're back to square one aren't we?

This is the sort of thing I look forward to testing in multiplayer BTW, because it seems only when I abuse mechanics and make people cry do they sometimes understand the point I'm trying to get across about how it's broken.
Interestingly enough, I was talking about the abuse of aircraft in that scenario, except in a slightly different context.
The abuse of aircraft in this specific scenario is directly related to supply starving a unit(reduced supply for being adjacent to enemy) because of the 50% supply rule is quickly amplified into 0% ammunition by only a single or two adjacent enemies. This is especially pertinent for low ammunition units, as many Soviet units are.
Last edited by Kerensky on Mon Apr 25, 2011 3:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Kerensky »

Hmmm... it isn't my turn, and when I check my list of 'opponent's turn' Kursk is gone...
Did a bug just delete our game?
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Post by Razz1 »

Kursk definitely needs +50 prestige for Allies plus 1 extra 85mm with truck and 1 I-16

That makes it allot better but the Soviets are still the underdog.

Adding the above won't harm single or campaign.
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Post by Obsolete »

Its easy.. just run them out of Ammo and keep a unit next to them and them can not re-supply.
I had already been there and tried that, (as mentioned elsewhere) IT DID NOT WORK!
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Post by Razz1 »

umm.. worked for me.

Keep the the KVs occupied and send in other troops for victory points.

You don't need to kill the tanks.

Kerensky has know problem in MP harassing the supply of Russian troops.
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Post by Obsolete »

One can not get over the non-sense of a tank unit that is totally surrounded, and out of supply... and yet there is nothing one can do to even force it to surrender.

I would think a human can only go for 3 days without water :twisted:
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Experience Ratio = (def exp level + 2)/(att exp level + 2)
Entrenchment Ratio = (def entr rate + 1) /(att entr rate + 1)
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Post by Razz1 »

We need a button for regular infantry to throw a moto-coctail.

Effect: Reduces suppression by 1

For engineer: adds 1 to HARD attack
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