KV I Indestructable at any range

Easterner · Post by **Easterner** » Fri Apr 22, 2011 9:46 pm

I just finished assigning a corps to kill an ammo-less KV I. It took 10 turns.

Assigned were 4 Mk IVG, 1x 150mm gun, 1x 170mm gun, 1x INF, 1X Bridger, 1 Bf109F, 1 Do217E, 1 Ju 87D. They were successful. Another KV I died quicker, I shudder to think if they had had 3.

KV Armor
Hull 75mm Rear: 70mm Bottom: 40mm; Superstructure (glacis) 40mm (driver) 75mm Top: 40mm; Turret (front): 70mm (side) 70mm Top/Bottom turret: 40mm; Gun Mantlet: 90mm

KwK L48 75mm penetration
100m 500m 1000m 1500m 2000m
106 ---- 96 --- 85 ---- 74 ---- 64mm

Odds were generally 0-0 resulting in numerous no affect attacks.

shawnt63 · Post by **shawnt63** » Fri Apr 22, 2011 10:28 pm

Interesting stats, but I think we need to be careful with using straight up statistics, things like tactics and radios and ammo types need to be taken into account at this scale. I am not saying we don't use your stats as a baseline, but I think we need to build in to the mix the different bits that straight statistics don't show.

Kerensky · Post by **Kerensky** » Fri Apr 22, 2011 10:37 pm

While I agree the KV-1 is somewhat overpowered in its defensive stats, I actually enjoyed fighting the unit in multiplayer. For probably the first time ever in a Panzer General game, I actually met an enemy I couldn't just steamroll right over in one or two shots. I had to think about alternatives to approaching this unit, not unlike how the Germans must have actually done in the early days of Barbarossa when all they had were PZIIIs, and IVs, against the KV-1.

They're painfully slow at a speed of 4, fairly expensive costing between 200-300 a piece, but if they are ever defending a Victory Hex City you need to occupy, infantry beat them silly. As long as you accept you cannot outright kill a KV-1, and then you realize 'maybe I don't actually need to slaughter every enemy unit in sight to achieve my ultimate objectives', you'll find the KV-1 isn't that much of a problem.

Out-maneuver, Isolate, Neutralize.

Have a look at my Kursk thread if you're curious. I was initially stunned when even my Panthers and Tigers couldn't hurt them, but I found a way around the problem regardless, even if it meant I wasn't able to kill them.
viewtopic.php?t=23653

Razz1 · Post by **Razz1** » Fri Apr 22, 2011 10:50 pm

I once again read today in a book that said KV's were unstoppable.
The Germans had to dig in their tanks and fight until dead.

The KV's just roamed around where they wanted to killing what the felt like at the time.

Take a look at the balance thread.

They should come down in GD just a little.

Try a campaign and you will see with unit experience the KV's are not that tuff.

Easterner · Post by **Easterner** » Sat Apr 23, 2011 1:22 am

My tanks were 11-15 each the planes too! Inf were murderated by this one.

The point is I wasn't using 41 junk tanks but '43 killers. Further compounded by it being out of ammo. It was worn down to 1SP. regenerated to 4 after I ran out of ammo and forced to leave an opening. In later Campaign my all Mk V/Mk VI PzKps cleaned them out.

comradep · Post by **comradep** » Mon Apr 25, 2011 7:44 am

I agree with Easterner, we're not talking about tanks primarily armed with 37mm or short 50mm guns like in 1941.

Panzer IVG's should mop the floor with KV 1's. In PG2, range 2 tanks danced circles around them, but in PG I just used the Luftwaffe to remove them.

Razz1 · Post by **Razz1** » Mon Apr 25, 2011 7:08 pm

Do some reading and you will find out the Germans had nothing to counter the KV's.

Just like the T-34 when it came out. The only way they could kill a T-34 was to let it advance enough and the wheel around a Pak 76mm to hit it from the rear.

The only thing the Germans had at the time was an 88mm that could kill the KVs.

comradep · Post by **comradep** » Tue Apr 26, 2011 11:43 am

Do some reading and you will find out the Germans had nothing to counter the KV's.

Again, we're talking about 1943 here. Both the 75mm L/43 and the L/48 could capably deal with a KV at realistic combat ranges.

Razz1 · Post by **Razz1** » Tue Apr 26, 2011 1:58 pm

It depends upon where the hit is at.

Allot for the armor was 75 to 110mm.
75mm was at on specific spot hard to hit in front and rear.

Even stukas had to hit the exact spot.

Post by **IainMcNeil** » Tue Apr 26, 2011 2:41 pm

We need to make sure they are not that hard to kill or it is no fun. Realistically the Germans went around them and cut them off. The crews were so poorly trained they often didnt know what to do. However thse are bad mechanics for gameplay so we just need to make their armour defence lower.

uran21 · Post by **uran21** » Tue Apr 26, 2011 2:45 pm

It is already done and should be in with new beta.

Kerensky · Post by **Kerensky** » Tue Apr 26, 2011 11:03 pm

This isn't yet the case with the German 'invulnerable' units though.

25 GD Gustav, 29 GD Tiger II, 35 GD Elephant, 41 GD Jagdtiger, 51 GD Maus.

The best British guns cap at 16 HA (Firefly/17 pounder ATG)
The best American guns... damn. Most Shermans have 10 HA? The M26 is a 15? I thought the M26 had a 90mm. The M36 Jackson has a 90mm and it's a 24 HA. 24 is actually respectable, but still pales against a 29 Tiger II, and forget anything with even MORE GD.
The best Soviet guns.. IS2 and ISU122 rate a 16 HA.

EDIT:
OoOooooOO Check me out. I better go edit my post to 'nicer' language.

Razz1 · Post by **Razz1** » Tue Apr 26, 2011 11:09 pm

Well if those German units have those GD's I don't see how you can touch them.

When is the next patch?

Kerensky · Post by **Kerensky** » Wed Apr 27, 2011 2:27 am

Razz1 wrote:Well if those German units have those GD's I don't see how you can touch them.

When is the next patch?

Soon™.

Kerensky · Post by **Kerensky** » Wed Apr 27, 2011 11:09 am

KV1 has officially moved to killable status. Elephants, Panthers, and Tigers can all kill them (KV-1C) now. 0-5, 1-4, and 0-2 odds respectively.

RIP Soviet Behemoth. You will be missed.

Post by **IainMcNeil** » Wed Apr 27, 2011 2:49 pm

Ok good

We need the units stats to be balanced for 0 xp, so that we can give xp to enemy units in later campaigns.

uran21 · Post by **uran21** » Fri Apr 29, 2011 5:09 pm

Kerensky wrote:The best British guns cap at 16 HA (Firefly/17 pounder ATG)
The best American guns... damn. Most Shermans have 10 HA? The M26 is a 15? I thought the M26 had a 90mm. The M36 Jackson has a 90mm and it's a 24 HA. 24 is actually respectable, but still pales against a 29 Tiger II, and forget anything with even MORE GD.
The best Soviet guns.. IS2 and ISU122 rate a 16 HA.

Thanks for pointing on this! I rechecked and indeed some mistakes were in. Should be fixed now.