Terrain Definition on selection (roads)

[elysiumsolutions@fsmail.n]

The convention is that as a terrain piece is selected they are placed in a pile upon the table and thereby their size and shape is defined. When you roll where which part of the table they are on if they dont fit they are discarded. i.e. no option to change their size is available. I cannot find anywhere in the rules where this is explicitely stated.

With roads normally coming in several pieces for transportability is it required that the selector defines their shape upon selection. (like all other pieces)

If it is this goes a long way to mitigating the Road/ river cheese (which I know goes away at v2) as if the river is on one flank if either of the 2 compulsaries or an open ends up against the other side the road will be unable to run around it and then along the side edge.

Paul

[grahambriggs]

The convention is that as a terrain piece is selected they are placed in a pile upon the table and thereby their size and shape is defined. When you roll where which part of the table they are on if they dont fit they are discarded. i.e. no option to change their size is available. I cannot find anywhere in the rules where this is explicitely stated.

With roads normally coming in several pieces for transportability is it required that the selector defines their shape upon selection. (like all other pieces)

If it is this goes a long way to mitigating the Road/ river cheese (which I know goes away at v2) as if the river is on one flank if either of the 2 compulsaries or an open ends up against the other side the road will be unable to run around it and then along the side edge.

Paul

In the terrain section I think "All terrain selection is made before any are placed on the table."

Not sure on your second point.

[elysiumsolutions@fsmail.n]

The second point relates to the way a road is used to run along a table edge to reduce the amount of terrain by causing pieces which throw a 3 or a 4 to be discarded as there is a road down one table edge and a river down the other.
If the shape of a road must be defined at selection then the normal choice would be a straight road or for the more cunning a straight road with a curl at the end so that it cannot be moved.
However, as the road goes down after compulsaries and any opens if there is a river on one side there is a good chance that either of the two compulsaries or an open will end up against the free edge. Thereby causing a straight road to not be deployable against the table edge and not able to block further pieces in this way or indeed one with a curl at the end to be discarded.

Paul

[grahambriggs]

Yes, I know what you mean but it's unclear what the rules allow. For example, can a player select a road that's 60MU long and flexible?

[elysiumsolutions@fsmail.n]

I agree the rules are unclear on this issue which is why I posted to allow the powers to be to indicate what the rules are.

The background was I was playing Peter Butlers Ilkanid with my EAPs. He won initiative and picked Agricultural. To limit terrain he picked a river and 2 opens but declined to pick the road as he believed that the roads shape must be defined upon selection. I had never thought about it and had effectively allowed people to select at the time of deployment thus allowing them to skirt around terrain. Hammy was at the club last night so I asked him whether you needed to define road shape upon selection and we agreed that it is not clear in the rules so I thought it would be useful to post hopefully to come to an agreement.

I agree with Peters logic in that why should everything else be defined but not roads and it also helps to limit the undesirable ability of roads to stop other terrain which is being nerfed at v2.

Paul

[gozerius]

Do the rules permit altering the shape of any other terrain piece? I say no. A piece that cannot be fit on the table is discarded. This applies to area terrain and should apply to linear terrain.
Alternatively, perhaps we can declare the size and type of each terrain piece but not its shape until it is placed?

[philqw78]

What if you or your opponent has chosen a village. The shape and size of the road would depend upon the position of the village

[gozerius]

Good. Then we are agreed. We apply the rule to mean that a player chooses the type and size class of each terrain piece, but the actual shape of the piece is not selected until it is time to place it on the table. That will certainly make things quicker at setup.

[elysiumsolutions@fsmail.n]

Good. Then we are agreed. We apply the rule to mean that a player chooses the type and size class of each terrain piece, but the actual shape of the piece is not selected until it is time to place it on the table. That will certainly make things quicker at setup.

Changing the common methodology of declaring terrains exact shape at selection would be a big change which would slow things down as then competitive people would insist on trimming down a piece until it fitted. This is undesirable for a number of reasons (asthetics and time not least).

What if you or your opponent has chosen a village. The shape and size of the road would depend upon the position of the village

Under roads (pg131) Terrain description of roads it states "Road.....must pass through or touch a village if there is one". There is no mention of this under villages but implicitly this mean that if a village is deployed after a road it must touch the road. If so a village is more constrained by such a restriction as it has to roll to determine where it is deployed whereas a road gets to pick. A village is expected to declare its shape upon selection.
If villages do not have to be deployed next to roads then it could be argued that roads are uniquely constrained and therefore should be allowed to declare their shape upon deployment or maybe only if a village is present.

Paul

[kevinj]

Villages are placed before roads and can only be chosen by the player with initiative. The chances are that if the other player has picked a road, it's as a "non-selection" so he probably doesn't care if it can't go down. If someone has chosen the Road/River combo they are unlikely to pick a village anyway. But, back to your original question, I believe that the road, like any other terrain piece, must be defined when selected, and if a compulsory piece/open space means that it doesn't fit then you lose it.

[hazelbark]

Good. Then we are agreed. We apply the rule to mean that a player chooses the type and size class of each terrain piece, but the actual shape of the piece is not selected until it is time to place it on the table. That will certainly make things quicker at setup.

Hold your horses that would be a huge change.

People could then take out a scissors and make terrain fit.

I think the basic shape of the road needs to be clear. IE an nearly straight or straight with a twist or whatever.

[hammy]

Good. Then we are agreed. We apply the rule to mean that a player chooses the type and size class of each terrain piece, but the actual shape of the piece is not selected until it is time to place it on the table. That will certainly make things quicker at setup.

Hold your horses that would be a huge change.

People could then take out a scissors and make terrain fit.

I think the basic shape of the road needs to be clear. IE an nearly straight or straight with a twist or whatever.

It would indeed ba a huge change to the way the game is played BUT if you look carefully at the rules there is actually no mention anywhere of the exact size and shape of terrain being defined before it is placed.......

I am not suggesting that things should be done this way, merely pointing out that on reading the rules (it seems to help ) that there is no mention of the comonly used convention of declaring everything at the start.

[elysiumsolutions@fsmail.n]

Villages are placed before roads and can only be chosen by the player with initiative. The chances are that if the other player has picked a road, it's as a "non-selection" so he probably doesn't care if it can't go down. If someone has chosen the Road/River combo they are unlikely to pick a village anyway. But, back to your original question, I believe that the road, like any other terrain piece, must be defined when selected, and if a compulsory piece/open space means that it doesn't fit then you lose it.

I agree with everything you just said. As you say only the player with initiative can pick a village and this is deployed before the road. I think Phil would argue that if he has picked Developed since he doesn't know where his compulsary village will end up, which his road must touch, he is limited by this in making his determination of road shape at terrain selection time. As you said normally the selection is Agricultural and there is no village.

Paul