so I am playing a game where unfortunately for the Allies fair weather lasted all the way to November 20th.
This resulted in a fall of Paris in March (I don't understand how mind you, I have never been able to take a full strength Paris in one turn losing only 2 TAC steps 1 ARM step and 2 MECH steps).
Anyway, the early fall means teh British don't have enough Naval units to patrol the Med or the Atlantic as the Med fleet isn't activated yet.
This means Italy is guarenteed to enter immediately.
I think that if France falls very early then the British Med fleet should activate before the Italy entry calculation is made (I am not sure if this is even enough naval elements).
unintended outcome?
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Peter Stauffenberg
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The problem is that the Med fleet is activated when Italy activates.
Isn't it possible for the British fleet to send a few naval units to the Med from the Atlantic and have the ships stationed near Gibraltar so they can get out again?
If you need to keep the fleet near England then Italy will join early, but it that ahistorical? Wouldn't Italy take the chance of a weak UK to activate early to get the spoils?
I see the Med fleet as reinforcements sent to the Eastern Med from the Far East because France was attacked. Originally Britain was supposed to patrol the Atlantic and France the Med. They didn't foresee the situation where France could be conquered. So Britain was not prepared patrol the Med alone in the Spring of 1940.
Isn't it possible for the British fleet to send a few naval units to the Med from the Atlantic and have the ships stationed near Gibraltar so they can get out again?
If you need to keep the fleet near England then Italy will join early, but it that ahistorical? Wouldn't Italy take the chance of a weak UK to activate early to get the spoils?
I see the Med fleet as reinforcements sent to the Eastern Med from the Far East because France was attacked. Originally Britain was supposed to patrol the Atlantic and France the Med. They didn't foresee the situation where France could be conquered. So Britain was not prepared patrol the Med alone in the Spring of 1940.
all of the British DD's are in the Med (off Gibralter)
so we think its ok in the normal course of events for Italy to enter in March because the weather is fair that year? Remember the Med fleet is there, just not counted because of the order of the Game mechanic's.
I think moving two extra DD's to the Med is over kill for the British but that doesn't stop it. There is no way Italy would enter the war in March with the British heavily committed (over in my mind) just because France falls early due to good weather.
so we think its ok in the normal course of events for Italy to enter in March because the weather is fair that year? Remember the Med fleet is there, just not counted because of the order of the Game mechanic's.
I think moving two extra DD's to the Med is over kill for the British but that doesn't stop it. There is no way Italy would enter the war in March with the British heavily committed (over in my mind) just because France falls early due to good weather.
Historically, Mussolini entered the war after the capture of Paris because he didn't want to miss out on adding more colonies to Italy's collection. He made a push in North Africa because he perceived Britain to be weak there because they now stood alone against Germany. The only thing that's different in your game versus history is that France fell in March versus July. If France had actually fallen in March why would Mussolini have waited until June to enter? I think the current game situation is more accurate historically than forcing Italy to wait.
well I don't agree with that implementation in the game then
the Axis are going to Sealion with the help of Italian's and it won't be stoppable - I really don't think Mussolini would invade Britain in March/April 1940.
So on the one hand I should stop this by having the entire RN in the Med, on the other I should - what?
It's March and the whole of the Axis is going to invade Britain - sorry the game mechanics are wrong.
I am not the greatest player, but my France defence is pretty solid. This shouldn't be possible with sensible Allied play.
If you think all of this is ok because the Allies have messed up, try it out in hot seat - there is nothing you can do that doesn't wreck Britain for the whole game. At the very least the 1939 weather should be changed so it can't be fine all the way through.
Again I say, try it as the Brits with fair weather all the way to December.
the Axis are going to Sealion with the help of Italian's and it won't be stoppable - I really don't think Mussolini would invade Britain in March/April 1940.
So on the one hand I should stop this by having the entire RN in the Med, on the other I should - what?
It's March and the whole of the Axis is going to invade Britain - sorry the game mechanics are wrong.
I am not the greatest player, but my France defence is pretty solid. This shouldn't be possible with sensible Allied play.
If you think all of this is ok because the Allies have messed up, try it out in hot seat - there is nothing you can do that doesn't wreck Britain for the whole game. At the very least the 1939 weather should be changed so it can't be fine all the way through.
Again I say, try it as the Brits with fair weather all the way to December.
Just one question. As you pointed out that fair weather lastet till November 1939, did the Axis player attack France already in 1939 (Blitzkrieg) or did he wait for 1940 (Sitzkrieg)?
I think if he did attack in 1939 and got lucky with the weather and his attacks against Paris (However, if he was able to attack with three ground units and two TACs it is not unlikely that the defenders of Paris go down), then it is reasonable that France could fall in March 1940. It is the advantage of the Blitzkrieg option in contrast to the Sitzkrieg option to capture Paris a little bit earlier. However, the Blitzkrieg option is risky if you do not get good weather in 1939.
I also fully agree with Borger and Ronnie that Italy should join the Axis as soon as France falls, as this was also historically the case. I also think that it would be reasonable that the Italian participate in Sealion. Historically the Italians participated in the Battle of Britain with airplanes. In GS the Italians will also sent there small airforce to support the invasion, which seems realistic.
The only thing that seems a little bit ahistorical is the fact that Italian units can participate in the ground invasion as they have transports and amphibious invasion capacity even outside of the Med. Nevertheless, this could be justified through bringing small ships from Italy through France to the area of operation against Britain. or the Italian use German/French ships.
I think if he did attack in 1939 and got lucky with the weather and his attacks against Paris (However, if he was able to attack with three ground units and two TACs it is not unlikely that the defenders of Paris go down), then it is reasonable that France could fall in March 1940. It is the advantage of the Blitzkrieg option in contrast to the Sitzkrieg option to capture Paris a little bit earlier. However, the Blitzkrieg option is risky if you do not get good weather in 1939.
I also fully agree with Borger and Ronnie that Italy should join the Axis as soon as France falls, as this was also historically the case. I also think that it would be reasonable that the Italian participate in Sealion. Historically the Italians participated in the Battle of Britain with airplanes. In GS the Italians will also sent there small airforce to support the invasion, which seems realistic.
The only thing that seems a little bit ahistorical is the fact that Italian units can participate in the ground invasion as they have transports and amphibious invasion capacity even outside of the Med. Nevertheless, this could be justified through bringing small ships from Italy through France to the area of operation against Britain. or the Italian use German/French ships.
I think all of this is because of the lucky weather. Normally, german campaign in the west has to stop in Holland because of the bad weather.
Random weather is more challenging than a predictable weather. In a recent game playing as axis I was able to cause lot of losses to the russians in november 1941. It was november 9, 1941 with mud weather and the russians made a close approach to german lines foreseeing that severe winter could hit in the very following turn of 29 november but the fact was that in the next turn it was fair weather so the russians, being so close to german units, became easy targets and they lost several important units so when severe winter campaign arrives in december 1941 their push was weaker because of this.
Random weather is more challenging than a predictable weather. In a recent game playing as axis I was able to cause lot of losses to the russians in november 1941. It was november 9, 1941 with mud weather and the russians made a close approach to german lines foreseeing that severe winter could hit in the very following turn of 29 november but the fact was that in the next turn it was fair weather so the russians, being so close to german units, became easy targets and they lost several important units so when severe winter campaign arrives in december 1941 their push was weaker because of this.
Weather can bite ... but those are the break. Borger and I are playing each side against each other (i.e., two games going between us). It' February 8, 1940 and we're both playing Seitzkrieg. Guess what! Here's the message I got from Borger as the axis,
Based on skill level I'm the one who needs the extra help but that was not to be. The GS weather gods with their wrapped sense of humor gave Borger the break. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised to see him as the axis get fair weather the next two turns and see me not get fair weather in the other game until April. Wouldn't that just bite!
The weather is a big factor in what makes each game different even when played by the same two players.
You guessed it in our other game with me as the axis the weather was mud!Axis: Fair weather so Case Yellow started. Belgium fell and the Schelde river was crossed. I just prepare for possible mud weather next turn since you've dug in behind the rivers. If I get mud I can only advance to your line, but still it's good to be inside France when March begins.
Based on skill level I'm the one who needs the extra help but that was not to be. The GS weather gods with their wrapped sense of humor gave Borger the break. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised to see him as the axis get fair weather the next two turns and see me not get fair weather in the other game until April. Wouldn't that just bite!
The weather is a big factor in what makes each game different even when played by the same two players.
I didn't mean to imply that Mussolini wanted to added England to its list of colonies. He did; however, want to take some of the English colonies (e.g., Egypt) and added them to the Italian empire.there is no sitzkreig vs blitzkreifg as the fair weather lasted till December, there was no reason to sitzkreig most of France was already taken
I do expecat that Paris can fall in one turn when attacked from three sides, but to do almost no damage in return seems odd
I don't mind that the weather means an early fall of France, its the other things:
1. The British don't have enough Naval assets (having lost none) to stop a 100% chance of Italy joining in
2. Once Italy joins in and participates in Sealion, still all of the British troops in the Med remain inactive except Malta. All of the Troops in Egypt an Iraq just sit there and do nothing - please, if the Italians are invading England they would do something!
I do expecat that Paris can fall in one turn when attacked from three sides, but to do almost no damage in return seems odd
I don't mind that the weather means an early fall of France, its the other things:
1. The British don't have enough Naval assets (having lost none) to stop a 100% chance of Italy joining in
2. Once Italy joins in and participates in Sealion, still all of the British troops in the Med remain inactive except Malta. All of the Troops in Egypt an Iraq just sit there and do nothing - please, if the Italians are invading England they would do something!
But I think this is historical. The Italians did not enter the war because of the British naval assets in the Med. They entered the war, because the French were beaten and they hoped to profit from the spoils of war:richardsd wrote: 1. The British don't have enough Naval assets (having lost none) to stop a 100% chance of Italy joining in
The decision to enter the war was not dependent on British naval assets. It was a purely opportunistic decision as Mussolini expected that the war will end quickly, because Britain will not continue the fight and the French were beaten. Furthermore, it was obvious that with the French navy out of the war, the naval balance in the Med would shift. To have naval superiority in the Med the British were fully dependent on the French navy. The RN in the Med was not so strong at this time.Italian dictator Benito Mussolini said to Pietro Badoglio, the Chief of Staff of the Italian Royal Army (Regio Esercito), "I only need a few thousand dead so that I can sit at the peace conference as a man who has fought"
You have a point here, but it also depends on what these British units in the Med represent. If I remember correctly the British military presence in Egypt was small in 1939/1940. However, the British succeeded to fend of the Italian at Sidi Barani despite beeing vastly outnumbered:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Compass2. Once Italy joins in and participates in Sealion, still all of the British troops in the Med remain inactive except Malta. All of the Troops in Egypt an Iraq just sit there and do nothing - please, if the Italians are invading England they would do something!
After Operation Compass the British reinforced the Middle East. So the units in Egypt and the Middle East are not activated because these units are the reinforcements the British sent in 1940 to this theater. However, it would be more realistic if these units were spawned and not inactive from the start, as in fact the British units were not there, but needed to be shipped to Egypt.
Nevertheless, this would lead to play balance problems, as Egypt would then be an easy target for the Axis in 1940, if the British units spawn only later in the war.
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Peter Stauffenberg
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- Joined: Sun Jul 08, 2007 4:13 pm
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Many people have made comments on GS for being too scripted, meaning that regardless of what you do you will end up along the same path. I think that certain actions should have consequences so you can get opportunities if you deviate from the historical path.
If you take France early then I don't think it's unnatural that Italy would join earlier as well. The Allied player can still avoid that by sending 2 BB's through Gibraltar and keep the ships until Italy joins anyway. If Sealion was a real threat then Britain would send their navy to Britain and not the Med where Italy was still neutral.
The main reason the units in Egypt are on the map and not spawned as reinforcements is that if the Italians DoW Egypt early then there would be some units present to halt the Italian offensive.
The reason the naval units spawn is because if you place a unit in a neutral port you can leave because the sea hexes are not neutral. So to avoid Britain from sending the Med navy to the Atlantic they're spawned when Italy joins the Axis. This can be seen as UK reinforcements arriving from the far east due to Italy activating and becoming a threat in the Med.
If you take France early then I don't think it's unnatural that Italy would join earlier as well. The Allied player can still avoid that by sending 2 BB's through Gibraltar and keep the ships until Italy joins anyway. If Sealion was a real threat then Britain would send their navy to Britain and not the Med where Italy was still neutral.
The main reason the units in Egypt are on the map and not spawned as reinforcements is that if the Italians DoW Egypt early then there would be some units present to halt the Italian offensive.
The reason the naval units spawn is because if you place a unit in a neutral port you can leave because the sea hexes are not neutral. So to avoid Britain from sending the Med navy to the Atlantic they're spawned when Italy joins the Axis. This can be seen as UK reinforcements arriving from the far east due to Italy activating and becoming a threat in the Med.