Best Ideas to Improve FOG PC

PC/Mac : Digital version of the popular tabletop gaming system. Fight battles on your desktop in single and mutiplayer!

Moderators: Slitherine Core, FoG PC Moderator, NewRoSoft

mceochaidh
Master Sergeant - Bf 109E
Master Sergeant - Bf 109E
Posts: 480
Joined: Sun Jun 20, 2010 4:39 pm

Best Ideas to Improve FOG PC

Post by mceochaidh »

Iain said "It's true that some things have changed because of the digital adaption. Casualty rates completely different because they are much more ganular on the tabletop. You either lose a base or not (representing about 25% of your battle group strength) when you get a hit. The chance of losing a base is 16.6% per hit. So 3 hits is a 50% chance.

This means the digital version can much better deal with the gradual errosion of battlegroups. The % damage may be off but if we change it there could be serious balance issues. We can certainly have a look at it. Maybe we should make each category have less variance and not overlap. E.g. 1 hit should not go to a max % that is above 2 hits min %. We've already used randonmess to determine the hits so no need to use it again to determine the spread to such a large degree."

"I am very encouraged that Iain and his group would be willing to revisit the variability of combat results. The poll I conducted in the fall showed that 2 in 3 players responding were in favor of reducing the frequency of wild combat results. I have suggested a modest change in the form of a bell curve applied to the manpower loss tables. This approach would not change the overall percentage chances of receiving losses, but would reduce the frequency of the extreme percentages. In the example of receiving 2 hits, a manpower loss of 14% may only occur 1 time in twenty (5% of the time) instead of one time in ten (10% of the time). This would result in generally longer combats with battle lines staying intact longer. This change, in my opinion, would not materially affect game balance. The wild results would still occur, just not as frequently."
The above quote from Iain and my response was from Feb 18th, 2011, and was part of a long list of comments from many contributors. Since I have lately seen a request from Iain for ideas regarding game play, I am taking the opportunity to solicit ideas from the group.

In order to best help prioritize the ideas for the design group, I would like to request that interested responders 1) limit their responses to the two most important areas to change and 2) include a way to make the change without much or any programming. I think this is important due to limited design staff time available. It is obviously fine with me if responders have the same top issues, but a diferent solution.

The above quote details issue number 1 for me and includes my solution, which would be easy to implement.

Issue number 2 for me is the lack of a unit command structure in the PC. In the TT version, the concept of a "battle Line" is used to combine BGs for movement. I have suggested different solutions to this issue, but lately have been playtesting in DAG games a very simple change. If a BG is not in command range, I reduce its movement allowance by 1. For example, if I am moving a medium foot BG with a movement allowance of 3, I click on the unit to show me the possible moves which are highlighted and then check to see if in command range. If not, I reduce the move by 1 hex. This is not hard to do and produces a very interesting change in the game. Pike units no longer take walks in the country by themselves; they tend to stay with they fellow pikes. I have to plan ahead for wide sweeping moves by medium foot or cavalry. I use all of the generals available. It makes games against the AI a little more interesting. This change would impact heavy foot more so than other troops, but all are affected. The biggest benefit to me is that it provides more realistic, historically accurate behavior (as well as moving more towards the TT rules.)

Ultimately, I play FOG in the hopes of getting a flavour of how combat was played out 1000 to 2000 years ago. I know that no game can be the same as real combat, but a balance of historical accuracy and playability. I think the changes I have suggested would move FOG in the direction of being more historical, without sacrificing playability or game balance. In fact, I think the two changes would compliment each other. The slight reduction of wild combat swings would tend to make melees last a little longer and the change in movement when out of command would motivate heavy and medium foot to stay in battleline.

I hope (and expect knowing our forum group) for other ideas that could be considered and acted upon by the design team in the near future. I think that it is very important to continue to evolve the core game, as has been done lately, for example, with the addition of the map choices.
stockwellpete
Field of Glory Moderator
Field of Glory Moderator
Posts: 14501
Joined: Fri Oct 01, 2010 2:50 pm

Post by stockwellpete »

I agree with everything you have written and support your two points as key priorities in my desire to see the game become even more "historical". Excellent stuff. :D
TheGrayMouser
Field Marshal - Me 410A
Field Marshal - Me 410A
Posts: 5001
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 2:42 pm

Post by TheGrayMouser »

I wont go into the command structure thing since i dont like the idea of units forgetting how to march to "the sound of the guns" (or to safety) since they are merely outside an abstract "command radius" . The ground scale is 50 yards per hex, men can see unit banners and hear trumpets or even sergeants bellowing quite a ways away :)

My solution for Pikes strolling about the battlefield like commandos : make all pikes(and heavy spears) undrilled for movement purposes (not for any other tests), and make them all 2 hex size units (shouldnt be too hard to implement since the graphics in the game are now indiviual figures and not BMP's or whatnot of the entire BG.
hidde
Brigadier-General - 8.8 cm Pak 43/41
Brigadier-General - 8.8 cm Pak 43/41
Posts: 1837
Joined: Sun Oct 02, 2005 6:31 am

Post by hidde »

The combat results are number one for me and your solution seems like a good one.
I'm not sure what to think about the command thing. I understand it would be more historicaly correct with some limitations but I think there is a danger it would change the game to quite some degree and I'm not sure to the better.
There is a lot of talk about luck versus skill. A lot of the skill comes from how a player move and place his troops. Take away to much of that and luck will be even more noticable. I think the balance luck/skill is fine as it is and don't want to see more luck come into play.
Other than combat result I don't have any major issue. One smaller could be pursue of routed BG:s
If I'm correct it happens every time now and goes on till the routed unit is annihilated. I wish there could be a small chance the winner don't pursue at all and then an increased chance each turn after that the pursuing unit stop follow the beaten BG.
mceochaidh
Master Sergeant - Bf 109E
Master Sergeant - Bf 109E
Posts: 480
Joined: Sun Jun 20, 2010 4:39 pm

Post by mceochaidh »

One thing I forgot to mention on command idea is that all compulsory moves would remain the same as well as the ability to charge any enemy within normal movement range; MF could charge 3 hexes whether or not in command radius.
stockwellpete
Field of Glory Moderator
Field of Glory Moderator
Posts: 14501
Joined: Fri Oct 01, 2010 2:50 pm

Re: Best Ideas to Improve FOG PC

Post by stockwellpete »

mceochaidh wrote:Issue number 2 for me is the lack of a unit command structure in the PC. In the TT version, the concept of a "battle Line" is used to combine BGs for movement. I have suggested different solutions to this issue, but lately have been playtesting in DAG games a very simple change. If a BG is not in command range, I reduce its movement allowance by 1. For example, if I am moving a medium foot BG with a movement allowance of 3, I click on the unit to show me the possible moves which are highlighted and then check to see if in command range. If not, I reduce the move by 1 hex. This is not hard to do and produces a very interesting change in the game. Pike units no longer take walks in the country by themselves; they tend to stay with they fellow pikes. I have to plan ahead for wide sweeping moves by medium foot or cavalry. I use all of the generals available. It makes games against the AI a little more interesting. This change would impact heavy foot more so than other troops, but all are affected. The biggest benefit to me is that it provides more realistic, historically accurate behavior (as well as moving more towards the TT rules.)
Once the league season is over I would be interested in playing some games with you with this idea in place. It would certainly reduce the "horde problem" too where you can be confronted by masses of leaderless skirmishers. In your experiment do you reduce the skirmisher movement allowance by 1 as well if they are out of command radius, or might you reduce it by 2 (for proportionality).

I am hopelessly outclassed, in any case, by the very best players of FOG (so it doesn't really matter what I try to do against them) but what I find is they tend to adopt what I call a "swarm-like" tactic whereby they try to overwhelm me with numerous closely-packed units where the terrain is favourable to them or neutral. I have no idea how to deal with this except by chucking as many units into the same area as possible and hoping for the best (which just creates a confused scrum) - but this doesn't strike me as being particularly realistic or historically accurate at all. Quite often I have found myself being "swarmed" by twenty or so units in one part of the battlefield that have no commander present at all.

But in a fantastic recent league game against TGM, the tempo was much slower (your ideas would reduce the tempo considerably) and we played out a gripping encounter over 20 moves. This felt much more historically accurate, we were able to hold reserves back, for example, and the units did tend to stay grouped around the commanders.
maximvs
Staff Sergeant - Kavallerie
Staff Sergeant - Kavallerie
Posts: 321
Joined: Thu Oct 05, 2006 5:11 pm
Location: Nottingham UK

Post by maximvs »

I like the idea of commanders having a larger role in the battle.
In some of my DAG armies I have retained the minimum amount of generals in order to maximise the number of points available for regular troops. This is entirely unrealistic of course ... show me an army in history that said 'forget the general, we'll hire some extra mercenaries instead' :wink:
Adraeth
Sergeant First Class - Panzer IIIL
Sergeant First Class - Panzer IIIL
Posts: 359
Joined: Mon Jun 29, 2009 8:19 am

Post by Adraeth »

I like the less movement rule for units "out of command"
TJD
Staff Sergeant - StuG IIIF
Staff Sergeant - StuG IIIF
Posts: 296
Joined: Sat Apr 10, 2010 8:32 pm

Post by TJD »

I agree with Adraeth. I worked on HPS' Ancient Warfare series quite a lot, and that system leaves units entirely fixed in place when they are outside command-control. I would like FoG to pay more attention to the C&C issue, but not adopt the severe model that HPS uses.

Regarding pikes, mceochaidh might find HPS' method interesting . Pike units can only move in "group" mode. So you definitely don't have the wandering individual pikes that he complained about.

Tim
IainMcNeil
Site Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 13558
Joined: Fri Apr 01, 2005 10:19 am

Post by IainMcNeil »

If you can manage this discussion mceochaidh it would be great to get a prioritise list if what you guys would like to see. We dont need it any time soon - far too much going on with foreign editions but good to start building the list. Also no guarantees any of it will get done but if we know what you want it helps us priortise what we work on next. Feel free to take your time!
mceochaidh
Master Sergeant - Bf 109E
Master Sergeant - Bf 109E
Posts: 480
Joined: Sun Jun 20, 2010 4:39 pm

Post by mceochaidh »

Iain,

Thanks for the response. I will continue along with this, asking for specific areas to change and also for a specific solution that would not require much or any programming.

Pete, as for my idea on command control, I am playtesting with the 1 point movement reduction for all troops. So LF move 3 hexes when out of command instead of 4. The reason for this is to still allow the ligher, faster troops some freedom to avoid the heavy troops while imposing some penalty for being out of command. It seems to produce more of an incremental change rather than a radical change in game play. The real change I am finding is that more thought is required BEFORE movement of multiple BGs to try to avoid individual BGs ending up out of command. If you move a wing in order to flank an enemy line, it becomes much more important to provide for command control duing that movement. You have to devise an overall battle plan at the beginning of a game and proceed to carry it out, rather than assuming you can react to any enemy movement. You still can change your battle plan; it just becomes more challenging. Games seem a bit more structured and less chaotic. It produces more games like the one you describe with TGM. I would be happy to play such a game with you when you have time.

Mac
TheGrayMouser
Field Marshal - Me 410A
Field Marshal - Me 410A
Posts: 5001
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 2:42 pm

Post by TheGrayMouser »

A concern, how are you going to reconcile 3 movement rates within the game?
*normal moves
*double moves
*limited moves if out of command
Might get kinda bizzarre and add to the abstractness , not enhance realism.

What about troops that get outside command range via anarchy or simply winning a combat and chasing a router for multiple turns.
mceochaidh
Master Sergeant - Bf 109E
Master Sergeant - Bf 109E
Posts: 480
Joined: Sun Jun 20, 2010 4:39 pm

Post by mceochaidh »

TGM, the game is already using logic to determine if a BG is in command range. What I am proposing would use the same logic. Based on that logic, potential move hexes would be highlighted, just as in double moves. Presumably, there would be more commanders on the field of battle, and those commanders would move to get BGs into command range. Then the BGs can move normally.

Historically, I believe it was often difficult to get troops chasing routing enemy to return to the battlefield. It usually took a general's presence and at times this did not work. Shock troops such as lancers WILL charge and end up out of command, but can still turn to face enemy or charge enemy if in normal move range.

Skirmishers will still evade normally, but skirmishers out of command will have a more difficult time running away from light horse who are in command. I think this is more realistic and historical. Presently, I can manuever skirmish infantry around light horse very easily by putting them into a position that they can't be charged by the light horse. I don't think this is historical. Remember, we are moving each BG individually, but are trying to simulate simultaneous movement. With the proposed change, skirmish foot can still manuever around light horse, but this will be more challenging without the presence of a commander. Historically, it was never a good idea to expose unsupported skirmishers to light horse.

I am sure there will many other things to consider and I appreciate the debate.
pantherboy
Tournament 3rd Place
Tournament 3rd Place
Posts: 1227
Joined: Tue Oct 20, 2009 3:30 pm

Post by pantherboy »

TheGrayMouser wrote:A concern, how are you going to reconcile 3 movement rates within the game?
*normal moves
*double moves
*limited moves if out of command
Might get kinda bizzarre and add to the abstractness , not enhance realism.

What about troops that get outside command range via anarchy or simply winning a combat and chasing a router for multiple turns.
Personally I'd like some kind of command structure as I feel it would enhance the level of skill needed to control your force efficiently and effectively. As for your comment about anarchy and chasing routers I feel they have little bearing. If we take the issue of anarchy then that implies they have charged something I didn't want them to charge. Now for the issue of command and control to come into effect then they have to win the fight versus whatever they went after which in effect means the unit who has charged has done very well and cleared the area of enemies so I wouldn't care that he stops moving effectively as he has already paid his weight in gold. Also if I understand correct the modification would mean he is still able to charge things when outside of command but will be limited in maneouvering. As for chasing routers well that was always a problem for military forces especially with cavalry and as such will slow down their return to the fight. To me this isn't such a big issue as compared to commando warfare that currently exists.
deeter
Brigadier-General - 15 cm Nblwf 41
Brigadier-General - 15 cm Nblwf 41
Posts: 1987
Joined: Sat Sep 06, 2008 8:52 pm

Post by deeter »

I'll weigh in on this again. The problem is that the TT rules specifies min/max BG sizes that are bigger across the board than the one-hex BGs on the PC. Thus, BGs are seldom one hex wide. Most mounted and civilized HF (pikes and legions, etc.) would be 2 hexes wide all the way out to barbarian troops whose BG's could be 6 hexes wide.

Losing one MP for being out of command is a good start, but forcing troops to stay together in larger formations would better replicate the TT rules and ancient warfare in general. This is what I would like to see and it would end the dominance of horde armies for good. Barring min/max rules, just saying everyone but skirmishers has to end their turn adjacent to a similar troop type would be a big improvement.

Another idea would be that units out of command lose all MP unless to move within command radius.

Deeter
TheGrayMouser
Field Marshal - Me 410A
Field Marshal - Me 410A
Posts: 5001
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 2:42 pm

Post by TheGrayMouser »

Wasnt clear I guess, my concern isnt knowing if a unit is in command nor a UI issue but a game play issue. What will the command radius be? likly it will be small: 3 hexes eminating from a leader? maybe 4 ? It doesnt take much to get everone of those units (especially cavalry) completey out of that radii and thus out of the battle for a long period of time.
Think of evades as well. Even cavalry can evade more than their movement allowance w the VMD. How many turns would it take to get 4 light spear cavalry units back into formation if scattered by the charge of one enemy lancer?

I agree on skirmishes sliding around cavalry units etc. i would propose though that has less to do with any kinda command thing but should be reconciled by changing evades ie a light foot unit one hex away from a charging cavalry should almost definelatly get caught 2 hexes away , probobly caught etc.
Also, perhaps all light foot might need to pass a CMT to aproach to one hex of the frontal arc of any cavalry unit.

Hmm, I am really going to need to think hard on how a command and control structure could work within FOG. So many things can come into play.
zumHeuriger
Staff Sergeant - StuG IIIF
Staff Sergeant - StuG IIIF
Posts: 272
Joined: Sun Mar 28, 2010 3:12 am

Another possible issue - IMHO

Post by zumHeuriger »

The double-charge:
Two units charge the same enemy unit; the first unit disrupts or fragments the defender, and the second unit then gets a "safe" charge to move into contact. In the TT this is less likely to happen because there is no easy way to get 8 base-widths charging 4.

Simple solution: A unit engaged to its front cant be contacted in its front by a charge, if the hex is in the "front" of another unit.

Perhaps not a biggie.
zumHeuriger
Staff Sergeant - StuG IIIF
Staff Sergeant - StuG IIIF
Posts: 272
Joined: Sun Mar 28, 2010 3:12 am

Post by zumHeuriger »

TheGrayMouser wrote:Wasnt clear I guess, my concern isnt knowing if a unit is in command nor a UI issue but a game play issue. What will the command radius be? likly it will be small: 3 hexes eminating from a leader? maybe 4 ? It doesnt take much to get everone of those units (especially cavalry) completey out of that radii and thus out of the battle for a long period of time.
Think of evades as well. Even cavalry can evade more than their movement allowance w the VMD. How many turns would it take to get 4 light spear cavalry units back into formation if scattered by the charge of one enemy lancer?

I agree on skirmishes sliding around cavalry units etc. i would propose though that has less to do with any kinda command thing but should be reconciled by changing evades ie a light foot unit one hex away from a charging cavalry should almost definelatly get caught 2 hexes away , probobly caught etc.
Also, perhaps all light foot might need to pass a CMT to aproach to one hex of the frontal arc of any cavalry unit.

Hmm, I am really going to need to think hard on how a command and control structure could work within FOG. So many things can come into play.
Perhaps contagion could be used to help improve command radius: A unit is command if it is within the command radius of the commander, or is adjacent to a unit of the same class (Cav, Ln, LH, HF, etc...) that is in command?
deeter
Brigadier-General - 15 cm Nblwf 41
Brigadier-General - 15 cm Nblwf 41
Posts: 1987
Joined: Sat Sep 06, 2008 8:52 pm

Post by deeter »

That is a good idea! It would go somewhat toward what battle lines do on the TT. Beyond that, I don't think command ranges need to be changed or additional leaders created, etc.

Another idea would be to have units forming a larger BG evade together.

Deeter
mceochaidh
Master Sergeant - Bf 109E
Master Sergeant - Bf 109E
Posts: 480
Joined: Sun Jun 20, 2010 4:39 pm

Post by mceochaidh »

I like zumHeuriger's idea about adjacent BGs to a BG in command radius also counting as in command. If I am understanding correctly, a HF BG next to another HF BG would count as being in command, but a MF BG out of command next to a HF in command would not. This would promote the "battle line" concept. The programming logic would be "check if in command, if not, check if adjacent to same troop type in command" or something like that. I am not sure how complicated it would be to program.

To TGM's question on command ranges, I assumed for simplicity (read - no programming) that no new commander types would be added. Therefore, a field commander would still have a range of 5 hexes in any direction. Players would tend to buy more commanders. Perhaps some lists would need more commanders available to choose.
Post Reply

Return to “Field of Glory Digital”