Catalan Company

[Catalan]

I think there is a world of differece between drilled Superior Off Spear and undrilled average impact foot.

Are you comparing Almughavars to the Romans? If so, he was Superior and Elite Drilled Impact Foot.

The Catalans are a very solid force but you have to believe in manuver and not head on clashes. There terrain is for where you fight through but manuver through.

True, and I tried to play the maneuver game, but in the end, the fight is going to happen in the open vs Heavy Foot. He's usually not going to enter and, because you're not impulsive if you 'could' end in terrain, you're not going to suck him into terrain.

What kills the Medium Foot IM(very Humble)O is the -1 for Cohesion Tests for losing to HF in the open. From what I've seen, if you lose a melee you usually get the 'did 2HPB' penalty. That means Superior troops will pass the Cohesion Test 56% of the time. But Medium Foot will only pass it 42% of the time because of 'losing to HF.' That difference is pretty significant.

When you factor in that most Almughavars are Off. Spear, this becomes a cascade effect because they then no longer count as Steady meaning you're down a POA in melee against most units. Now you're passing that Cohesion Test 31% of the time. So they're just too brittle.

(Yeah you can put a character with the unit, but there's not enough to put them with every unit that's going to be engaged).

I floated an idea to the local veteran, about suggesting tweaking that modifier. I get the idea that HF are just going to push around Medium Foot, but I think representing it in the Cohesion Test isn't right. I suggested swapping it out for a 'tie breaker POA' in melee. Basically Steady HF in the open fighting MF get a POA if there are no other net POAs. I suggested this in conjunction with the idea for whatever gets done for the 'barbarian POA' that is being talked about.

I also think that impulsive units should be something you can suck into terrain. Something like if a unit is in the open and evades, the impulsive unit still has to test to not charge and may end up charging into the terrain.

[ethan]

Building an army with Medium Foot as your line troops is just no good. Its basically the same problem the barbarian Gauls/Germans/etc. have against the Romans. (Played these guys against the Romans, and saw it first hand). You pay points for being good in terrain, but the fight will usually be in the open.

I must disagree here. The Catalan Company as Superior, Protected, MF, Offensive Spear are capable of handling most things in the open, in particular they are very solid against mounted. Romans, assuming they are Superior, Armoured, IF, SSw are a tough match-up (down in impact, at best evens in melee always at a morale disadvantage if you lose) but thinking Catalans have to stay in terrain is a mistake.

They are not anything like undrilled MF, average, IF, Sw - they play very differently and can be used much more aggressively.

[hazelbark]

You are placing too much reliance on statistics. Now I am not claiming Catalans are the world's best army but they are quite a decent one.
Vs Romans

1) If the romans are running the elite stuff, they are small. You can manuver around them quite a lot.
2) Its not about taunting them into terrrain. Its their lack of mobility and desire to avoid terrain that allows you to scurry through it for a better position.
3) Send in the Knights. If you you think your MF don't like HF imagine what the Roman will feel like down a POA to armour and paying for that skilled sword that doesn't count.
4) Since they have to face the knights with their best legion your MF can cream their supports.

[Catalan]

I must disagree here. The Catalan Company as Superior, Protected, MF, Offensive Spear are capable of handling most things in the open, in particular they are very solid against mounted.

I guess that's a matter of opinion. I don't see no net POA as 'very solid.' I see that as a coin-flip.

You are placing too much reliance on statistics.

Heh. As opposed to what, chicken entrails? Because if sacrificing a chicken before every game will give me the edge, that's a health code violation I'm willing to pay.

(I'm just teasing, not trying to start a flame war).

But seriously, the statistics I quoted aren't the basis for my analysis. I've played games and gone back looking at them and said "they cost the same as HF but something about them just doesn't feel like they're on par." So I pulled up the numbers, which confirmed my feeling. Maneuvering through terrain is nice, but the penalty for fighting in the open simply outmatches that benefit. I maintain if they gained a 'half-POA' in Impact and lost a 'half-POA' in melee instead of the Cohesion Test penalty that'd be a good place to start testing.

1) If the romans are running the elite stuff, they are small. You can manuver around them quite a lot.

He was running them in BGs of 4. He had as many BGs as I did.

2) Its not about taunting them into terrrain. Its their lack of mobility and desire to avoid terrain that allows you to scurry through it for a better position.

He kept the terrain right in front of him, wasn't going to give me a flank like that. When I was trying to pin him down with Almughavars in the front and cavalry riding around the flank he charged his skirmishers into my Almughavars. The skirmishers got predictably routed and then my Almughavars pursued them into the open.

3) Send in the Knights.

Don't have Knights. Since I can only take 1 BG of them, I opted to save the points and go for 3 units of cavalry. This gave me more flexibility to maneuver around an enemy's flank and lets me have +4 on the Init roll so I can have a hope of controlling terrain.


I think in the end it comes down to three things:

1) My opponents are very experienced. They know the rules back and forward and how to maximize every aspect of this game from terrain choice, deployment, unit selection & use, etc.

2) I am very not. There's been little and not so little mistakes I've made. But while I new to this system, I'm not new to tactical games like this.

3) The Catalan Company is just a weak list. This is something that has been echoed by several people. What makes the Almughavars just weak instead of made-of-suck is that they're drilled. If they were undrilled, well, well they'd be Spanish Scutarii (which is basically what they are: Iberian hill folk). The development forum is filled with methods to make barbarians better, and I think Almughavars should be thrown into that discussion. Basically, I think the current rules for Medium foot work well for things like Bow-Sword type units, but there should be something in there to help out Shock Medium Foot.

[ethan]

I look forward to playing you with Catalans someday

I have found them to be quite successful in the open against most comers. The Drilled Spearmen at 20AP a file are a solid match against most things and generally are cheaper. The key to winning is to use that advantage somewhere else.

[sadista]

MF at least have the option to utilise terrain or retreat into it. HF are generally always stuck in the open.
This gives MF the edge IMHO.

[azrael86]

You are placing too much reliance on statistics. Now I am not claiming Catalans are the world's best army but they are quite a decent one.
Vs Romans

1) If the romans are running the elite stuff, they are small. You can manuver around them quite a lot.
2) Its not about taunting them into terrrain. Its their lack of mobility and desire to avoid terrain that allows you to scurry through it for a better position.
3) Send in the Knights. If you you think your MF don't like HF imagine what the Roman will feel like down a POA to armour and paying for that skilled sword that doesn't count.
4) Since they have to face the knights with their best legion your MF can cream their supports.

Not trying to get into an argument, no, Catalans aren't the best army around, but they are decent. They aren't great against the best heavy foot - although they are good against almost anything else (and I include HA Kn in the open in that). It dependa how many legions you are facing. If it is some legions plus other troops - then - kill the other troops. you are faster than the legions and roman cavalry is mediocre. Against an army with a lot of legions then you have two choices. The first option is to use unprotected almughavars. This will mean you have extra units, and as romans don't shoot, being unprotected is not a big problem. You just have to get flank charges. Even elite legions die to flank charges. The alternative using CC is to go shooty, and have maximum LH - make the Romans chase you and pick them off.

Alternatively, swap to another almughavar army - one that has knights- SHNC, MCA, Sicilain or Latin Greek. It doesn't really matter what you use the knights on, they can take the legions frontally or take out the cavalry.

[Catalan]

MF at least have the option to utilise terrain or retreat into it. HF are generally always stuck in the open.
This gives MF the edge IMHO.

And for this is counterbalanced by the fact that while an analogous HF will pass its first cohesion test, you won't. Then you're no longer Steady (so now POA goes to him, no matter what you're facing) and its all downhill from there.

I would be 95% of the way there if it weren't for that penalty to cohesion tests.

Not trying to get into an argument, no, Catalans aren't the best army around, but they are decent.

Right, because they're drilled. But this is proof that Medium Foot Shock troops need just a touch of a boost, something that is all over the 2.0 thread. Like I said, if 'barbarian foot (i.e. MF Shock) got a half POA on Impact & lose a half POA in melee in exchange for the penalty to the cohesion test I'd be pretty much cool with them.

Oh and not taking it as argument. Merely a friendly, respectful discussion.

although they are good against almost anything else (and I include HA Kn in the open in that).

We'll agree to disagree there. I don't see that 'being even' = good. I'd say that Almughavars are "not bad" against them. They don't lose any POAs, but they don't gain any. Ironically, you're better served to send Roman Equites against Almughavars than Knights.

It dependa how many legions you are facing. If it is some legions plus other troops - then - kill the other troops. you are faster than the legions and roman cavalry is mediocre.

Well that was what I was trying to do. He was experimenting with a 'Cassius & Brutus' Late Republican Roman army. So, I managed fairly well to delay on the left (where I was outmatched) while sweeping his two LH away with my 3 LH, freeing up 2 Lancers to come around the flank. My mistake was in not turning to engage earlier (like I said, still getting used to the timing on the game).

Had he taken his normal Late Republican Roman, I would've had a really hard time breaking him up. He proved that he was more than willing to draw out my guys by sacrificing his skirmishers.

Against an army with a lot of legions then you have two choices. The first option is to use unprotected almughavars. This will mean you have extra units, and as romans don't shoot, being unprotected is not a big problem. You just have to get flank charges. Even elite legions die to flank charges.

Well, that works until I face the Later Lithuanian with Tatar allies. I mean, if I can just tailor my list to my opponent, sure no problem, but by and large people around here play tournament format: build a take all comers list. Which is fine, I think taking the same army against Roman legionnaires and the horse archer horde is the way to go.


I'm still not terribly convinced MF line units are worth it. They can be drawn out of terrain but can't draw people in, they fail their Cohesion Tests first, and at best the Almughavars are even against guys they historically beat (in exchange for getting thumped by any IF troops). If they go the IF route its the same problem in reverse.

Mind you, I really really really want to like this army. I've been devouring info on the Catalan Company since I read about it on madaxeman's wiki. But in the end, they're just a .22 caliber army in a .357 game (to turn a phrase).

[waldo]

But in the end, they're just a .22 caliber army in a .357 game (to turn a phrase).

It did win a 33 player open tournament in Australia so it can't be all bad...

Walter

[Catalan]

Well clearly you're a better player than me.

(That's not me being snide at all, but rather a full throated compliment)

Maybe I'll come back around to them, because the background is just really cool, but the rules annoy me.

[hazelbark]

I think in the end it comes down to three things:

1) My opponents are very experienced. They know the rules back and forward and how to maximize every aspect of this game from terrain choice, deployment, unit selection & use, etc.

2) I am very not. There's been little and not so little mistakes I've made. But while I new to this system, I'm not new to tactical games like this.

3) The Catalan Company is just a weak list. This is something that has been echoed by several people. What makes the Almughavars just weak instead of made-of-suck is that they're drilled. If they were undrilled, well, well they'd be Spanish Scutarii (which is basically what they are: Iberian hill folk). The development forum is filled with methods to make barbarians better, and I think Almughavars should be thrown into that discussion. Basically, I think the current rules for Medium foot work well for things like Bow-Sword type units, but there should be something in there to help out Shock Medium Foot.

Well a major experience differential is going to a problem no matter what. Learning the use of drilled MF is an acquired skill. I like them. When I fall out of habit and try to slug it out with them things go badly.

But your opponents can't be too good if they are running elite republican romans.

For all of us, we need to find an army that suits our style.

[Catalan]

Well a major experience differential is going to a problem no matter what. Learning the use of drilled MF is an acquired skill. I like them.

Well, our points are not mutually exclusive. It's possible both your point and my point can be true at the same time.

In fact, that's the gist of my point. I'm not saying "they suck because I lost." I'm saying "I suck at playing them right now, but part of the reason they have such a hard time is..."

Like I said, I've seen numerous comments about the needs to beef up barbarian foot. And when it comes to Medium Foot, I feel the great weakness for Shock MF is that cohesion test penalty. The math bears me out on the disadvantage they have in a huge aspect of the game. Disorder breeds Fragmentation, which breeds routing, which makes Disorder contagious to nearby units. If one unit has a penalty for their class, that's not a minor disadvantage. That's a huuuuge disadvantage. And while I can be accused of giving too much attention to the numbers, I think its also fair to say that if the intent of this game is to be a serious tourney type game (which it clearly is), the goal should be to make the points balance to the effectiveness.

But rather than just winge (to borrow a phrase from my brethren across the pond), I thought I'd toss up a suggested fix. Gaining a half POA in impact and losing a half POA in melee is still a net disadvantage, and a fairly big one at that. But the catch is it won't lead to this cascade effect (drop cohesion, thus giving up a POA and dropping further, thus routing and causing others to drop).

But your opponents can't be too good if they are running elite republican romans.

He takes a mix of superior and elite, and seems to do pretty well. I'll not cast dispersions at them because 2 of the 3 I've played in other games and they are sharp players.

[hazelbark]

But rather than just winge (to borrow a phrase from my brethren across the pond), I thought I'd toss up a suggested fix. Gaining a half POA in impact and losing a half POA in melee is still a net disadvantage, and a fairly big one at that. But the catch is it won't lead to this cascade effect (drop cohesion, thus giving up a POA and dropping further, thus routing and causing others to drop).

Personally i rather have better POAs and hope to avoide the test than having to test a lot more often which is what worse POAs will mean.

[Catalan]

Oh I'd take the POA loss all day. First it's only a half POA drop vs Foot. So it's only going to come into play if you were at no net POAs. If you're facing, say, Superior Protected Offensive Spear then the half POA comes into play. You getting 1.33 hits and he's getting 2.67 hits. Your lose, taking 1hp3b penalty for a -1. But you're not taking the -1 penalty for MF in the open. Meaning you're at 56% to pass that test instead of 42% to pass. That means its a coin flip whether you drop this turn or next, as opposed to probably dropping this turn.

But remember, you pair that with the half POA on the impact, so you probably won impact and hopefully disrupted him. If you didn't you're going to lose the long fight, but that's how it should be. You'll lose eventually as opposed to on the very first turn.


If you're facing IF you get the half POA at Impact and then are down a half POA. Same basic thing: POAs are net so he gets the half POA, which means you lose the long fight. Of course if you disrupt he goes up a full POA on you and then if you Frag he'll go up 2 at which point its good night Irene.

So like most barbarians you do well on the charge but lose as the fight grinds on. Of course, this is better than as it is currently where if you lose the first fight you're basically going to fail and then its a cascade collapse.

[ShrubMiK]

The funny thing is, you'll find plenty of people around here that will tell you that HF sucks and drilled MF is the way to go. Some will tell you the opposite. And then of course, there some that will tell you that all foot (with the possible excption of LF bow) is worthless

That's not to say that the disadvantage of MF vs. HF in the open should not be modelled differently to how it is today. But perhaps this should be discussed in the v2.0 forum rather than risk it being buried and lost here?

[Catalan]

Yes, it probably should. I'll leave it to some of the more august members of this forum to suggest it if they think the idea has merit. Being relatively new to the game, I probably don't carry much street cred. Heck, I wouldn't listen to me either if the situation was reversed.

[hannibal]

Check out the rankings

http://www.slithdata.net/files/fog/rankings.html

Catalan company currently 7th - suggests that according to statistics it's a very good army!

[grahambriggs]

3) Send in the Knights.

Don't have Knights. Since I can only take 1 BG of them, I opted to save the points and go for 3 units of cavalry. This gave me more flexibility to maneuver around an enemy's flank and lets me have +4 on the Init roll so I can have a hope of controlling terrain.


I think in the end it comes down to three things:

1) My opponents are very experienced. They know the rules back and forward and how to maximize every aspect of this game from terrain choice, deployment, unit selection & use, etc.

2) I am very not. There's been little and not so little mistakes I've made. But while I new to this system, I'm not new to tactical games like this.

3) The Catalan Company is just a weak list. This is something that has been echoed by several people. What makes the Almughavars just weak instead of made-of-suck is that they're drilled. If they were undrilled, well, well they'd be Spanish Scutarii (which is basically what they are: Iberian hill folk). The development forum is filled with methods to make barbarians better, and I think Almughavars should be thrown into that discussion. Basically, I think the current rules for Medium foot work well for things like Bow-Sword type units, but there should be something in there to help out Shock Medium Foot.

I think the list authors had a struggle to properly represent the Almughavar historical performace and adopted a 'least worst representation' approach.

I would take the knights myself. It's a trade off but it gives you a tool to use against Romans as your fott are not great against them and your cavalry are OK but not as good as knights.

While I haven't played Catalan I have played Aztecs (which are kind of Catalans minus the mounted). My advice is to persevere. It took me at leat a dozen games of being more or less pounded before I worked out how to use them. These armies are always a knife edge. Deployed and used perfectly they can be great. But get things slightly wrong and they look really bad. On the other hand, if your opponents are further up the curve and likely to stay they, you might want an army that's a bit less tricky to coordinate.

[Catalan]

I think the list authors had a struggle to properly represent the Almughavar historical performace and adopted a 'least worst representation' approach.

That's a polite way of saying "they got it wrong."

In the end, being Drilled saves them from being a waste, and I think there's probably a playable list in the Catalan Company. I just don't think the Almughavars do the job they should do. I could see an argument that they should be thumped by Impact Foot & Offensive Spear. However supposedly they beat up cavalry of most types (defeating Turks and European knights in turn). Rather than say they won by other circumstances (terrain, etc.) the authors have chosen to say there was something innate to the unit, hence the Off Spear status.

However against cavalry that will stand and fight they are at best even at Impact and even in Melee. (And you get tweaky things where against Light Spear cavalry, they're down a POA.) They are supposed to be good against cavalry, but I refuse to believe that "even odds" = "good against."

Then you throw in the brittleness of the penalty to cohesion tests. Since they're Offensive Spear, they need to stay Steady otherwise they go from "good against" to "down POAs."

But I can see I'm clearly tilting at windmills here. I picked up the other half of the army because I like the models and the history of the army. So I'll keep playing them for now and resign myself to the fact that Shock MF is just a "m'eh" unit in general. I appreciate everyone's feedback and for being so polite about shouting me down.

[ethan]

However against cavalry that will stand and fight they are at best even at Impact and even in Melee. (And you get tweaky things where against Light Spear cavalry, they're down a POA.) They are supposed to be good against cavalry, but I refuse to believe that "even odds" = "good against."

Even against at 2/3 the cost per file, meaning you should have 50% more bases is pretty good. If I am 4 lancer cavalry (64-68A) looking at charging 6 MF OS (60AP) at evens knowing that if the Catalans don't disrupt at impact I am on to a serious thrashing in melee I don't htink that is so good...

The AP does matter in the match-ups. If you are catalans you have to find a way to make your numbers count.