Flank attack on unsupported Artillery

SchuleinP · Post by **SchuleinP** » Sun Apr 10, 2011 11:48 am

In yesterdays game my opponent had a PS regiment with on its left flank an artillery battery without rear support.

SPSAA C

My cuirrassiers had a flank charge on his artillery.
After the impact in the melee what happens?
- I assume the guns are neutral until captured by foot.
- Can my cuirrassiers charge the PS regiment on its flank?
- Can they even move through the guns? Since they were not moving front to back or vice versa.
- Could I capture the guns with infantry and turn them 90 degrees to fire into the flank of the PS unit, in stead of the 180 degrees?
In the rulebook we only found examples of charging guns frontally.
Thanks
Peter

hood_mick · Post by **hood_mick** » Sun Apr 10, 2011 2:27 pm

Artillery remains out of action as you think. Mounted cannot interpenetrate arillery in any direction so can only move around them, and the artillery cannot be turned 90 degrees.

SchuleinP · Post by **SchuleinP** » Sun Apr 10, 2011 3:45 pm

hood_mick wrote:Artillery remains out of action as you think. Mounted cannot interpenetrate arillery in any direction so can only move around them, and the artillery cannot be turned 90 degrees.

But that would mean an artillery base is also a field defense against a mounted flank attack?
Seems odd.

deadtorius · Post by **deadtorius** » Mon Apr 11, 2011 9:31 pm

Artillery that is not defended by friends is easy pickings, obviously your mounted troops think too highly of themselves to bother trying to dismount and get those lowly gunners back to work for their new masters. Thus only foot can capture arty and force the guns to perform as you wish, although they are now permanently poor.

You can never turn a battery 90 degrees unless you have lots of time and somehow manage to make that 90 degree turn with 1 MU increments for many many turns. You can spin 180. You have to picture a row of say 6 guns side by side with barrels of powder, tables, shot and other assorted junk in the way and then ask how you could ever move such a battery to a new 90 degree facing. As if they are not heavy enough all that crap adds to the problems of something other than lifting the trail and spinning it in place, which would be heavy enough in the first place.

Also explains why you can't move through them from side to side...
So not really a field fortification vs Cav at all in the end. Just a nice juicy target that you don't really want to leave all alone on the battle field.

Blathergut · Post by **Blathergut** » Mon Apr 11, 2011 9:42 pm

I think the point is that with the arty right on the side of the friendly BG, it seems to be making it impossible to attack said friendly BG since you can't remove the guns or move through them.

I haven't had a chance to read through the pages again to see if it is mentioned somewhere what happens.

SchuleinP · Post by **SchuleinP** » Tue Apr 12, 2011 6:10 am

Blathergut wrote:I think the point is that with the arty right on the side of the friendly BG, it seems to be making it impossible to attack said friendly BG since you can't remove the guns or move through them.

Exactly! That seems strange.

MatteoPasi · Post by **MatteoPasi** » Sat May 28, 2011 9:55 pm

hood_mick wrote:Artillery remains out of action as you think. Mounted cannot interpenetrate arillery in any direction so can only move around them, and the artillery cannot be turned 90 degrees.

Mounted cannot interpenetrate "artillery BG", captured but uncontrolled artillery are not a BG till some shot take them so HIMO no problem to interpenetrate them

footslogger · Post by **footslogger** » Sun May 29, 2011 12:56 am

MatteoPasi wrote:
hood_mick wrote:Artillery remains out of action as you think. Mounted cannot interpenetrate arillery in any direction so can only move around them, and the artillery cannot be turned 90 degrees.
Mounted cannot interpenetrate "artillery BG", captured but uncontrolled artillery are not a BG till some shot take them so HIMO no problem to interpenetrate them

Why do you think uncontrolled artillery are not a BG? Page number please.

MatteoPasi · Post by **MatteoPasi** » Sun May 29, 2011 6:53 pm

footslogger wrote:
MatteoPasi wrote:
hood_mick wrote:Artillery remains out of action as you think. Mounted cannot interpenetrate arillery in any direction so can only move around them, and the artillery cannot be turned 90 degrees.
Mounted cannot interpenetrate "artillery BG", captured but uncontrolled artillery are not a BG till some shot take them so HIMO no problem to interpenetrate them
Why do you think uncontrolled artillery are not a BG? Page number please.

Naither player can shoot them nor move them, they doesn't shoot, give support of any kind, they doesn't fight and doesn't take morale if friendly BG rout ....... are they a battlegroup ?

And if artillery are "uncontrolled" HIMO this means that there are no men manning cannon

deadtorius · Post by **deadtorius** » Sun May 29, 2011 9:45 pm

no men there but there are still guns, barrels tables wagons etc in the way. I don't think its a few gunners with tools of the trade that are the cause of the problem but all the paraphernalia that is needed to shoot the guns in the first place that gets in the way.
Were not up to Napoleonic ready shot etc yet. At least early on they still had barrels and scales to measure out the powder. Lots of crap to get in the way.

hazelbark · Post by **hazelbark** » Tue May 31, 2011 2:02 am

MatteoPasi wrote:
hood_mick wrote:Artillery remains out of action as you think. Mounted cannot interpenetrate arillery in any direction so can only move around them, and the artillery cannot be turned 90 degrees.
Mounted cannot interpenetrate "artillery BG", captured but uncontrolled artillery are not a BG till some shot take them so HIMO no problem to interpenetrate them

inventive logic, but I am not sure it ceases to be a BG. It ceases to be a controlled BG.

However the authors may seize your point to fix the impassable artillery carriages.

MatteoPasi · Post by **MatteoPasi** » Tue May 31, 2011 10:50 am

hazelbark wrote:
MatteoPasi wrote:
hood_mick wrote:Artillery remains out of action as you think. Mounted cannot interpenetrate arillery in any direction so can only move around them, and the artillery cannot be turned 90 degrees.
Mounted cannot interpenetrate "artillery BG", captured but uncontrolled artillery are not a BG till some shot take them so HIMO no problem to interpenetrate them
inventive logic, but I am not sure it ceases to be a BG. It ceases to be a controlled BG.

However the authors may seize your point to fix the impassable artillery carriages.

All depends on what You define a BG: in the definition of BG there is "troops" and HIMO uncontrolled canon are not troops at all BUT this is only my opinion, an Official point of view can help.

nikgaukroger · Post by **nikgaukroger** » Tue May 31, 2011 11:00 am

As far as I can see a BG is a BG and does not stop being one.

MatteoPasi · Post by **MatteoPasi** » Tue May 31, 2011 11:45 am

If You get a limbered artillery that BG must be remouved from the table (the same for war wagon and baggage both impassable to mounted), unlibered must be left in place in order to mark the point where the owner can get them back.

HIMO the role of the "unit" is only to mark the place and like others markers they aren't supposed to have any other influence in the game.

Its a nonsense that only this kind of unit and only when caught unlibered can still influence others units after to have been broken

chubooga · Post by **chubooga** » Fri Jun 03, 2011 9:54 pm

inteesting one......hmmmmm

does the arty count as lost once the cav hit it? if it does count as lost, then it isnt a BG as its los therefore not blocking LOS or movement etc. Once the guns are recovrered, and no longer count as lost, then its a BG again....

not quoting pages in the book, just thinking out loud.

jon

deadtorius · Post by **deadtorius** » Fri Jun 03, 2011 11:48 pm

You still lose army break points for losing your artillery, but you can get them back by recapturing it.
I still think its a matter of the guns and all that other junk getting in the way, stuff that won't move no matter how many horse men threaten it, stupid daft barrels of powder just have no sense of the proper order of the world...

MatteoPasi · Post by **MatteoPasi** » Sat Jun 04, 2011 3:51 pm

deadtorius wrote:You still lose army break points for losing your artillery, but you can get them back by recapturing it.
I still think its a matter of the guns and all that other junk getting in the way, stuff that won't move no matter how many horse men threaten it, stupid daft barrels of powder just have no sense of the proper order of the world...

Yes, barrels of powder are far less brillant than war wagon