Should we set limits on BEF force in Case Yelow?

Blathergut · Post by **Blathergut** » Sat Apr 09, 2011 4:00 pm

I think the suggestions are good. I liked the idea of HG spawning when Axis units were adj to the coast. There's no way they'd have been sent to France or Norway or anywhere else.

zechi · Post by **zechi** » Sat Apr 09, 2011 4:40 pm

This would be a good solution from a game balance perspective. However, I'm not sure if its a realistic/historic solution.

Under the pretext that the British would move every unit they can to defend France (something which did not happen in the real war), then I even doubt that the French would have surrendered so easily. In fact the French were willing to continue the fight if the British would have sent more units, especially more planes to France.

In case France surrendered I doubt that British units would be so easily destroyed. France is a rather big country (from a European perspective) and it would not have been so easy for the German to round up all of the remaining British units in France. I also doubt that these British units would have surrendered, but rather they would have tried to reach the coast or a neutral country and be evacuated. In fact the British managed to evacuate a lot of British soldiers from France after the evacuation of the Dunkirk pocket.

These operations are less known as Operation Dynamo, but the Germans did not manage to stop any of the British evacuations. For more information read here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Ariel
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Cycle

Minor evacuations from British troops from France continued until August 1940.

Peter Stauffenberg · Post by **Peter Stauffenberg** » Sat Apr 09, 2011 5:01 pm

Do you have any other suggestion to prevent a situation where UK would abandon Egypt, Cyprus, Gibraltar, Malta and England to fight in France. I'm sure that this is not something Churchill would do. It would be too risky for them.

One way to deal with this is the following.

1. Malta garrison evacuated before Italian entry => No Malta fighter and DD will spawn there
2. Nicosia garrison evacuated before Italian entry => No UK sub will spawn in Famagusta
3. Alexandria garrison evacuated before Italian entry => No UK BB will spawn there
4. Port Said garrison evacuated before Italian entry => No UK CV will spawn there

British HG will spawn only when Axis units capture Paris or a German surface ship or transport is
in a British coastal hex. An alternative is to let the British HG spawn when Belgium surrenders.

This means there is no HG to send to France from the start of the game except the mech and corps units
plus HG units in the English channel ports. So Britain can send a small BEF to France. Other units have
to be purchased.

Should we also have a consequence for evacuating Gibraltar?

What do you think?

Blathergut · Post by **Blathergut** » Sat Apr 09, 2011 5:18 pm

Stauffenberg wrote:Do you have any other suggestion to prevent a situation where UK would abandon Egypt, Cyprus, Gibraltar, Malta and England to fight in France. I'm sure that this is not something Churchill would do. It would be too risky for them.

One way to deal with this is the following.

1. Malta garrison evacuated before Italian entry => No Malta fighter and DD will spawn there
2. Nicosia garrison evacuated before Italian entry => No UK sub will spawn in Famagusta
3. Alexandria garrison evacuated before Italian entry => No UK BB will spawn there
4. Port Said garrison evacuated before Italian entry => No UK CV will spawn there

All good!

British HG will spawn only when Axis units capture Paris or a German surface ship or transport is
in a British coastal hex. An alternative is to let the British HG spawn when Belgium surrenders.

Good!

This means there is no HG to send to France from the start of the game except the mech and corps units
plus HG units in the English channel ports. So Britain can send a small BEF to France. Other units have
to be purchased.

Should we also have a consequence for evacuating Gibraltar?

It never would have been left. It should be restricted/have a consequence.
What do you think?

rkr1958 · Post by **rkr1958** » Sat Apr 09, 2011 5:31 pm

Stauffenberg wrote:Do you have any other suggestion to prevent a situation where UK would abandon Egypt, Cyprus, Gibraltar, Malta and England to fight in France. I'm sure that this is not something Churchill would do. It would be too risky for them.

One way to deal with this is the following.

1. Malta garrison evacuated before Italian entry => No Malta fighter and DD will spawn there
2. Nicosia garrison evacuated before Italian entry => No UK sub will spawn in Famagusta
3. Alexandria garrison evacuated before Italian entry => No UK BB will spawn there
4. Port Said garrison evacuated before Italian entry => No UK CV will spawn there

British HG will spawn only when Axis units capture Paris or a German surface ship or transport is
in a British coastal hex. An alternative is to let the British HG spawn when Belgium surrenders.

This means there is no HG to send to France from the start of the game except the mech and corps units
plus HG units in the English channel ports. So Britain can send a small BEF to France. Other units have
to be purchased.

Should we also have a consequence for evacuating Gibraltar?

What do you think?

I still like having the UK garrisons at start as a counter to some unforseen 1939 Sea Lion strategy. I also still like the idea of UK units not on the coast being lost and those on the coast being returned to the force pool for 8 PP's. The rule in AH's 3rd is that British units must be evacuated from France on the turn it falls or they are eliminated. This is similar to that rule. To me, this keeps everything simple but the other suggestions above are good too and I could go along with those too.

Should we also have a consequence for evacuating Gibraltar?

What if we implemented where any land unit in the fort WITHOUT a land supply route is only in supply if the port is occupied by a friendly naval surface unit?

gerones · Post by **gerones** » Sat Apr 09, 2011 5:49 pm

Changes suggested by Borger sounds good to me. Particularly, penalties for leaving british Med garrisons will add more realism to the game since these garrison units were historically asigned to defend a small area so their roles were not to assume missions overseas as participating in french campaign was. So my votes are:

1. Malta garrison evacuated before Italian entry => No Malta fighter and DD will spawn there
2. Nicosia garrison evacuated before Italian entry => No UK sub will spawn in Famagusta
3. Alexandria garrison evacuated before Italian entry => No UK BB will spawn there
4. Port Said garrison evacuated before Italian entry => No UK CV will spawn there
YES to all

The same could be said for HG units in UK mainland: to only include Southampton and Plymouth garrison units in british 1939 set up and to spawn the rest of HG units in England after the fall of Belgium or if a german naval unit is close to british coastal hex.
I also vote YES to this.

About evacuating Gibraltar garrison a consequence that makes sense for me would be that Franco would be really tempted to seize the fortress! So may be a good thing could be that Spain would join the Axis if Gibraltar is abandoned and Paris is Axis controlled.

Peter Stauffenberg · Post by **Peter Stauffenberg** » Sat Apr 09, 2011 5:54 pm

Could we make it simpler with Gibraltar and let Spain annex Gibraltar if left empty, thus closing the access to the Med?

Blathergut · Post by **Blathergut** » Sat Apr 09, 2011 6:03 pm

good idea...and you will still enact brit units not on coast are lost when France falls?

Peter Stauffenberg · Post by **Peter Stauffenberg** » Sat Apr 09, 2011 6:27 pm

Zechi, I think your articles prove that British units evacuated asap to French ports to get back to Britain.

The articles also mentioned that many soldiers were captured unless already close to a port. Even some units near a port were captured. So we could easily simplify and say that British units in a coastal hex would all be evacuated while British units in inland hexes would be captured. That evens out that some soldiers inland escaped and some soldiers at the coast were captured.

I think it was very unlikely that the British Government would risk the home defense by sending their entire force to France. Helping with the RN and RAF is one thing because these units can quickly evacuate home, but the BEF would not so easily get home.

Our goal is to make sure that an Allied player deciding to defend in force in France does this at a risk of having many units killed or captured.

Evacuating the Med is certainly not something that would be historical. We let the British naval units spawn when Italy joins to simulate reinforcements from the Far East. The garrisons on map in the Med weren't unit suited for expeditionary use. Corps units is another matter, but they won't be able to move until Egypt activates.

Can we agree upon a way to do this? I think the simplest is to have evacuation rules for British units in France if Vichy is created. If armistice is rejected then the British units will fight on. Same with reinforcements not spawning in the Med if the Allied player evacuates the area where the reinforcements would arrive.

Peter Stauffenberg · Post by **Peter Stauffenberg** » Sat Apr 09, 2011 6:30 pm

My plan is to do the following.

1. Not spawn British units in the Med when Italy joins if the garrison where the units spawn have evacuated. Check is made separately for each spawning area.

2. Gibraltar will be annexed by Spain if garrison is evacuated and neither USSR and USA have entered the Allies. I want to lift the restriction when Barbarossa is on because then the Allies might want to reorganize Gibraltar to maybe add a bomber there for invasion of Vichy etc. So some time the area could be empty. Spain would probably only grab Gibraltar if Britain was alone and weak. Once the Allies got stronger then Spain would not have seized the opportunity.

3. British coastal units will be evacuated and inland units destroyed when Vichy France is created.

Please vote on this.

rkr1958 · Post by **rkr1958** » Sat Apr 09, 2011 7:09 pm

1. Not spawn British units in the Med when Italy joins if the garrison where the units spawn have evacuated. Check is made separately for each spawning area. Yes.

2. Gibraltar will be annexed by Spain if garrison is evacuated and neither USSR and USA have entered the Allies. Yes.

3. British coastal units will be evacuated and inland units destroyed when Vichy France is created. Yes, and the cost of evacuating units is 8 PP's

Blathergut · Post by **Blathergut** » Sat Apr 09, 2011 7:28 pm

Yes to all.

Making the units pay PP is good.

NotaPacifist · Post by **NotaPacifist** » Sat Apr 09, 2011 7:35 pm

HI all,

I've been convinced to remain on the team.

I vote yes to all.

Though I'm a bit confused on what we're doing with the home guard.

pk867 · Post by **pk867** » Sat Apr 09, 2011 7:51 pm

Hi
I agree with Ronnie's answer including the 8PP's per unit evacuated

Just to be sure the evacuated units go into the forcepool?
Paul

metolius · Post by **metolius** » Sat Apr 09, 2011 7:59 pm

rkr1958 wrote:1. Not spawn British units in the Med when Italy joins if the garrison where the units spawn have evacuated. Check is made separately for each spawning area. Yes.

2. Gibraltar will be annexed by Spain if garrison is evacuated and neither USSR and USA have entered the Allies. Yes.

3. British coastal units will be evacuated and inland units destroyed when Vichy France is created. Yes, and the cost of evacuating units is 8 PP's

Agreed.

gerones · Post by **gerones** » Sat Apr 09, 2011 8:28 pm

Yes to all.

Peter Stauffenberg · Post by **Peter Stauffenberg** » Sat Apr 09, 2011 9:15 pm

Yes, evacuated units go to the force pool and you pay the usual 8 PP's per unit evacuated. This will apply to only land units because naval units in enemy controlled ports will be destroyed and air units can fly home by their own.

Blathergut · Post by **Blathergut** » Sat Apr 09, 2011 9:49 pm

You might also include the Canadian HG. I have one game going now where both the Halifax and Quebec HG are in France.

Silly.

metolius · Post by **metolius** » Sat Apr 09, 2011 9:52 pm

Stauffenberg wrote:Yes, evacuated units go to the force pool and you pay the usual 8 PP's per unit evacuated. This will apply to only land units because naval units in enemy controlled ports will be destroyed and air units can fly home by their own.

I think the idea of destroying naval units at surrender is too extreme. It would be far more realistic for them to be repositioned one hex outside the port, or back in a UK port, or to the force pool.

Blathergut · Post by **Blathergut** » Sat Apr 09, 2011 10:04 pm

I think there should be a consequence. Get them out of port if fall is imminent or lose them. Same should happen with air units holding cities wanting to then flying away after the fall.