Dismounting Knights

[whitehorses]

When do English Knights get to Disnmount as Heavy Foot?

Aside from the Battle of Lincoln in 1141, there's little or no mention of Knights dismounting until Boroughbridge in 1322, & then & Dupplin Moor (1332) & Halidon Hill (1333).
And 4 years later when the Hundred Years War started in 1337, it became common practice.

How are the Feudal English & 100Years War English armies reflected in this?



Cheers,
Jer

[rbodleyscott]

When do English Knights get to Disnmount as Heavy Foot?

Aside from the Battle of Lincoln in 1141, there's little or no mention of Knights dismounting until Boroughbridge in 1322, & then & Dupplin Moor (1332) & Halidon Hill (1333).
And 4 years later when the Hundred Years War started in 1337, it became common practice.

How are the Feudal English & 100Years War English armies reflected in this?



Cheers,
Jer

The English list(s) that start in 1320 allow them to dismount.

We have not yet started work on the lists for the earlier period, but as you say, there is a period during which they would not be allowed to dismount at will.

[whitehorses]

When do English Knights get to Dismount as Heavy Foot?

Aside from the Battle of Lincoln in 1141, there's little or no mention of Knights dismounting until Boroughbridge in 1322, & then Dupplin Moor (1332) & Halidon Hill (1333).
And 4 years later when the Hundred Years War started in 1337, it became common practice.

How are the Feudal English & 100Years War English armies reflected in this?



Cheers,
Jer

The English list(s) that start in 1320 allow them to dismount.

We have not yet started work on the lists for the earlier period, but as you say, there is a period during which they would not be allowed to dismount at will.

List(s) ? ^_~

It seems ironic that under Edward II, it was the English Knight's last great hurrah for all those great uncontrolled charges in big numbers, but he didn't have the military nous that his Father or his Son had to use them properly;
His Father held them in check until the Longbowmen had done their work, & his Son dismounted them!

Are there any indications when English Knights became more disciplined under Edward III?

When you choose to dismount Knight BG's, do you have to dismount all of the BG's with Knights, or can you choose which Knight BG's are Mounted & which are Dismounted in Pre-Battle?


Cheers,
Jer

[terrys]

When you choose to dismount Knight BG's, do you have to dismount all of the BG's with Knights, or can you choose which Knight BG's are Mounted & which are Dismounted in Pre-Battle?

You may choose which BG's to dismount.
However, once deployment has finished, they must stay dismounted (or mounted) for the rest of the game.

[rbodleyscott]

List(s) ? ^_~

English 100 YW (Britain) - i.e. home defense vs the Scots etc.
English 100 YW (Continental) - i.e. In France, Spain etc.

Note that in this period, as English men-at-arms almost invariably fought on foot, the lists only allow a few men-at-arms to be kept mounted.

[whitehorses]

List(s) ? ^_~

English 100 YW (Britain) - i.e. home defense vs the Scots etc.
English 100 YW (Continental) - i.e. In France, Spain etc.

Note that in this period, as English men-at-arms almost invariably fought on foot, the lists only allow a few men-at-arms to be kept mounted.

Why split the HYW into Britain & Europe?
The only batttles I know of during the HYW in England were against the Scots were at Neville's Cross (1346) & Otterburn (1388) & the Percies & the Welsh at Shrewsbury (1403).
The lion's share of battles & Campaigns in Great Britain took place Pre-HYW & a few Post-HYW.

Even the battles of Dupplin Moor & Halidon Hill pre-dated the HYW & should really be at the tail end of the Feudal English era, as the English began to learn the wisdom of Dismounting their Knights to form a solid defensive line with their Longbowmen.


Cheers,
Jer

[nikgaukroger]

Why split the HYW into Britain & Europe?
The only batttles I know of during the HYW in England were against the Scots were at Neville's Cross (1346) & Otterburn (1388) & the Percies & the Welsh at Shrewsbury (1403).
The lion's share of battles & Campaigns in Great Britain took place Pre-HYW & a few Post-HYW.

Because there were those battles and the armies were different? Also IIRC there were a couple of expeditions to Ireland as well plus the Welsh campaigns against Glydwr even if they didn't lead to large battles.

Even the battles of Dupplin Moor & Halidon Hill pre-dated the HYW & should really be at the tail end of the Feudal English era, as the English began to learn the wisdom of Dismounting their Knights to form a solid defensive line with their Longbowmen.

As the "100YW" lists cover the period of dismounting these battles fall properly under that list. I can't see any material difference in those armies from the early 100YW ones - is there something you see? So basically why complicate the end of one list to make it the same as the begining of a later one?


Chee

[whitehorses]

Why split the HYW into Britain & Europe?
The only batttles I know of during the HYW in England were against the Scots were at Neville's Cross (1346) & Otterburn (1388) & the Percies & the Welsh at Shrewsbury (1403).
The lion's share of battles & Campaigns in Great Britain took place Pre-HYW & a few Post-HYW.

Because there were those battles and the armies were different? Also IIRC there were a couple of expeditions to Ireland as well plus the Welsh campaigns against Glydwr even if they didn't lead to large battles.


But if you're having a separate section for Britain in the HYW list, it should be more than 2 border clashes with the Scots & a few years against the Welsh. And even the two battles against the Scots were 40 years apart. I'm just saying it's not historical or realistic to treat the HYW English as two lists. By all means have something in the armylist that reflects that Knights dismounted versus the Scots before they faced the French & that Commanders against the Scots & Welsh cannot count as Inspired(fighting a Welsh guerilla war & a battle in the dark & on a flank march don't sound very inspiring!) , but it's not significant enough to count as a separate list within the HYW.

Even the battles of Dupplin Moor & Halidon Hill pre-dated the HYW & should really be at the tail end of the Feudal English era, as the English began to learn the wisdom of Dismounting their Knights to form a solid defensive line with their Longbowmen.

As the "100YW" lists cover the period of dismounting these battles fall properly under that list. I can't see any material difference in those armies from the early 100YW ones - is there something you see? So basically why complicate the end of one list to make it the same as the begining of a later one?


Chee

Edward III takes power from the Mortimers in 1330, so in theory if you include Dupplin Moor & Halidon Hill, you could count *that* as the start of the beginning of Dismounting Knights & ergo, the HYW period.
You certainly can't include it before 1327, because Edward II had his hands full with rebellious nobles & the Scots(the former involved in his murder) & for the one battle in his reign that had Knights dismounted, none of the other battles did.

Suggest that:
the Feudal English Era should start from the end of the Normans in 1154 until Edward III in 1330, which is when Knights dismounting becomes commonplace & not a rarity. Feudal Dismounts available in 1141 & 1322 but no other dates unless examples can be given
HYW English starts at 1330 until 1450, English Knights get to Dismount at will as from 1331.


Cheers,
Jer

[nikgaukroger]

I think you're looking to have needless complication in the lists. Cleaner just to split them when the tactical norm changed - such splits are always a bit arbitary anyway (there are few clear cut dates for a change) so why fumble around for probably spurious differences?

Of course it is not my choice on any of these things, that's up to Richard and the rest of the development team

[whitehorses]

I think you're looking to have needless complication in the lists. Cleaner just to split them when the tactical norm changed - such splits are always a bit arbitary anyway (there are few clear cut dates for a change) so why fumble around for probably spurious differences?

Of course it is not my choice on any of these things, that's up to Richard and the rest of the development team

It just seemed odd that the HYW list predated the actual war by 17 years, hence the suggestion that the start of the List be taken as 1330 under Edward III, with each battle therafter clearly defined as having dismounted Knights as a whole or just some.

Hope I'm offering constructive thoughts & not just being picky



Cheers,
Jer

[whitehorses]

When do English Knights get to Disnmount as Heavy Foot?

Aside from the Battle of Lincoln in 1141, there's little or no mention of Knights dismounting until Boroughbridge in 1322, & then & Dupplin Moor (1332) & Halidon Hill (1333).
And 4 years later when the Hundred Years War started in 1337, it became common practice.

How are the Feudal English & 100Years War English armies reflected in this?



Cheers,
Jer

The English list(s) that start in 1320 allow them to dismount.

We have not yet started work on the lists for the earlier period, but as you say, there is a period during which they would not be allowed to dismount at will.

Would there be much difference in the Feaudal English & 100YW English lists aside from Knights cannot dismount apart from the odd year here & there?



Cheers,
Jer