Version 6.01

[sagji]

I don't consider the interbound as a key concept - it is just another phase that is confusingly not in the current turn. It is no different to shooting or melee in that both sides get to act. [added] Also it should be the pre bound and moved to the start of the turn - to clarify that you don't get an interbound at the end of the game.[/added]

Bases is a key concept, also there is no mention of formation untill the movement rules yet you first position your bases in deployment.

C M Test isn't really key it is simple / complex move and the C M Table that is the key point.

Cohesion is the key point not the CT

I would leave death rolls out of the simple game, also camps.

The advanced (optional) rules are in sections labeled "full rules: ..." but only the new rules are there. I prefer to have all the rules in one place so you don't have to look in two completely different places for the rule you want specifics of.
[added]
or simply have a basic rules note in the same way the basic rules have a full rules note.
[/added]

The advice for new players should be after the basic rules not after the full advanced rules.

Stopping looting is done in the inter bound but the rules for it are in the full movement section. If you don't know it involves a CMT you won't look in movement. If you find it in movement you get the impression it happens in movement even though it says inter bound.

The rules say broken troups get 0 dice in combat. Elsewhere they say there is no PoA combet with broken troups.


Drilled is listed as a troup type in the basic rules.

Skirmishers are allways an exception to drilled / undirlled, consider making skirmisher a third type of training.

War Waggons are also called Waggons or battle waggons - standardise on one. BW is the best of these.

Artillery can't shoot as thay have no shooting PoA. There is no way to have artillery armed Wagons (e.g. German)

Wagons pay *3 for shooting PoA but don't get tripple effect. They get basic effect for artillery PoA if shooting to the side and double for xbow if shooting to the side.

I would like to see the *n cost for PoAs also applied to Swordsman on Knights and others that get 2 dice in melee, but reduce the mounted cost to 1.

Given that wagons need a CMT to move at all, and move so slowly should they be able to move twice without a general.

When moving twice the second move should have to immediatly follow the first.

[pauljo]

Hi guys,

I'm new to the list so plse excuse me if I come up with something that has been covered previously.

I read the 5.01 version of the rules and sent some comments thru to JD.

I'll copy them below:

"Read thru the rules a couple of times now. Looks good.

Am I right that there are no recoil moves (good if so - as recoils are a
bit
tedious in DBM - esp for pike blocks)?

I Like the interception charges. Maybe there should be interception
shooting as well?

I'm sure the rules will look simpler in the publication as you could
have a
separate column for the commentary (say in Italics as well) so people
don't
necessarily have to sift the commentary when playing the game.

One thing I noticed also was that there were a couple of mentions of
things
like - may only contract one base in a charge - but no mention of what
happens if a 2 base contraction becomes apparent during the charge. Is
the
charge then cancelled totally or does it stop when the 2nd base
contraction
becomes necessary. People could also use this rule to stop shock troops
charging by putting some of their own troops in the way (a bit
unreallistic
perhaps). Maybe troops should just charge in anyway (once declared) but
get
a minus for each contraction necessary - this would encourage keeping
the
way clear for shock troops and be more reallistic."

6.01 advises that the rules haven't changed but the layout has. I think this has been done in part but there is still perhaps an excessive amount of narrative in amongst the rules which should be separated in grey boxes in my opinion. Competition players or smilar are not going to like sifting the rules for what the actual rule is that they are looking for.

Cheers

[sagji]

WWg and orb never count as charges in flank or rear, so are never fighting in 2 directions. just needs a reminder?

WWg Art, or UnDrilled HF in terrain, can't contract into a column as contracting moving less than 3 is prohibited to undrilled and they can't move 3.

WWg count as 2 bases but only count the 1st rank but their normal "combat" mode is with the side enemy facing the side. This means the column of 4 WWg count as 2 bases.

WWg shooting from a side count as 2 bases and get 2 dice - needs an example to show that effectivly they get 4 dice. Also needs to be added to the dice table, or similar on the reference, to note the multiple bases.
Even worse in impact and melee they count as 2 bases with 3 dice each and a +
At which point the *3 cost for weapon PoAs is probably correct - I had missed the counting as 2 bases.
[added]
The count as 2 bases is an artifact from the old rules. However It would be better to leave it in, and then have WWg get 1 dice per base shooting, and 1 dice per base plus 1 dice per 2 bases for melee - as this solves the problem of WWg fighting with a long edge as on overlap or fighting 1 base on a long edge, and generaly works better.
[/added]
Deployment distances and ambush distances should be added to the terrain and points chart, also the deployment sequence and scouting modifiers.

The charts would work best as 2 double sided charts
A front - points and setup, ambush and flank march.
A back - CMT & modifiers in a single column + CT and modifers and casuses in a single column.
B front - move and impact
B back - shooting and melee

chart a flips to the b after setup, and chart b flips twice in own bound or if charged.

[madaxeman]

Cohesion is the key point not the CT

I think this point is well made and can be extended to the whole "key concept" page - its currently a "key concepts for wargamers who know rulesystems and w2ant to learn a new one" page, not a "intro to the rules" page.

Tim

[sagji]

Shooting and combat

If a unit is fighting only as an overlap there is no restriction on shooting.

It says rear rank bases of foot shoot if ... however I don't think the shooting rank must be a rear rank, only not the front rank - e.g. Thematic Skutatoi historical formation is 2 bases spear 1 base bow 1 base spear, the bow historicaly were able to shoot.

Glossary
The rules don't say an overlap can only fight in one combat.

[IainMcNeil]

Guys your overall impression on the revised layout of 6.01 is what we would really like to hear. Better than 5.01 or not ?

Helpful to beginners or not ?

Help ful to youger players or not?

Regards
JDM

[pauljo]

Hi Iain,
My comments on the layout were at the bottom of my message.
Change in layout is an improvement.
More narrative needs to be taken out of the body of the rules and put into grey boxes to avoid intensive reading to find the actual rule (so basically take further what has already been started in 6.01).

Hope that is the kind of feedback you are looking for.

[markm]

Played our second game last night.

LRR vs Carthy's again.

The new charts, and the new rules layout made it much easier to play the game, even taking into account that it was the second game. Rules references were few and far between, and easier to find, so a big thumbs up from us . Also very nice to see an expanded sequence of play chart - very helpful.

As Pauljo mentions above, do not fall into the trap of rules and commentary being confused. This is a huge problem GW has where it is hard to tell where the rule start/ends and the 'fluff' beigins.

I would also agree with the comments about using 'natural' languauge. Not coming from a DBM background I find 'bound' a very strange usage of the word. Especially when 'turn' is a more natural alternative.

Keep up the excellent work and hoping to get to a 'test' tournament soon