Catalan Company

[Catalan]

Just taking the plunge into the game and have settled on the Catalan Company (I really like those 'muggers'). Never played a game, so any feedback on this list would be very helpful. Here's what I'm thinking of taking:

4xTC
2x6 LF Unprot, Avg, Drilled, Jav, Lt Spear (Almughavar skirmishers)
4x4 LH Unprot, Avg, Undrilled, Bow, Swd (Turcopoles)
6x6 MF Prot, Sup, Drilled, Off Spear (Almughavars)
3x4 CV Arm, Sup, Undrilled, Lancer-Swd (Cavall alforat)

(the local group has started playing at 900 pts.)


I've kicked around tons of variations:
--Make the Turcopoles 2 BGs of 4 and 1 BG of 6, then using the extra points for a FC. Give +3 on the terrain roll.

--Give up on the terrain roll and drop one BG of Turcopoles to upgrade a unit of cavalry to knights.

The rough idea is to have the muggers do oblique marches while the light units slow down the other flank and/or secure my flanks. This way if the enemy counter-marches he'll open gaps in his line. If he doesn't I hit him with flanking muggers. The cavalry being undrilled means I doubt they'll do much more than "point at enemy, wait for good time to charge, charge." That's the theory anyway. I probably don't know what the heck I'm talking about, but it seems to me that the MF have to 'dance' a bit more, because looking at the POAs if I send them right into the teeth of HF I'm going to get beat up pretty quick.

Any help is appreciated.

[IanB3406]

I thought you had to have at least one Battlegroup of knights? I just started painting some Almughavars myself...

Ian

[chrisrivers13]

Nope, just some Armored cavalry Lancers

[philqw78]

The cavalry being undrilled means I doubt they'll do much more than "point at enemy

Superior cavalry are very manouverable, even if undrilled.

using the extra points for a FC. Give +3 on the terrain roll.

You probably want to move first with this army, or have a plus 4 intiative to get terrain. Anything else is a waste IMO. Stick with TC's and buy more troops.

[grahambriggs]

It's a good army generally, so that's a bonus.

Consider taking the Almughavars in 8s: say 4 BGs of them. 6s are a little fragile to shooting. With 8s you can deploy three bases wide and have reserves for the inevitable base losses.

The cavalry lancers are a good troop type and fast but I think I might go for knights which pack more punch (a unit of 4 knights rolls 8 dice in melee, whereas the cavalry will only roll 4).

The skirmishers are very manouverable but the foot and proper mounted are undrilled shock troops. Hence you'll find that they are a bit clumsy until you work out how to deploy them for the best and avoid bits of the army rushing off to their doom! But that's just a bit of experience and learning how the rules work.

[ethan]

I don't like the knights, they wind up being the only unmaneuverable thing in the army, stick with the Cv which are pretty good even though undrilled. Remeber that these can give rear support to the MF.

I am pretty indifferent between Albanians and Turks for LH, depends a bit on how you like to fight.

I take all the Almughavars in 6s, as Graham says they are a bit fragile but I find it hard to get enough BGs otherwise and the extra maneuver is very nice.

Most important thing to remember when using this army - if all else fails the Almughavars can take on almost anything at about evens in the open. My tactics often revolve around having a portion of the MF making a stand and the rest maneuvering around that. The real strength is your flexibility in deployment maneuver because of this. You don't have to redeplooy parts of your army to face off parts of theirs - all your army is about equally capable.

[Catalan]

Thanks for all the replies. My thoughts:

1) It seems that I can't get the +4 init bonus, but that's probably not totally necessary. Most terrain types will have something I can use to my advantage and if I get Steppe, then I'll just have to maneuver and suck it up.

2) 'Muggers' in 8s. I can pull it off if I drop 1 BG of them and a few bases of LH. That'd give 5 BGs of 8 instead of 6 of 6. 13 total BGs at that point consisting of 2 BGs LF, 3 BGs LH, & 3 BGs cav. Doable?

3) Some folks have suggested Knights. I can take 1 unit of them. Is that enough to be worth the additional cost? I'd have to either:
--drop two of the muggers down to 6 bases (making it 3x8 and 2x6)

--drop 1 BG of LH (giving me 12 BGs total).

--Or drop all the muggers down to 6 bases. That'd let me have 14 BGs: 2x6 LF, 3x4 LH, 2x4 Cv, 1x4 KN, 6x6 MF

Any of these options leaves me with 12 pts. An almost perfectly useless amount.

[kevinj]

I used this in a couple of 900 pt competitions last year:

IC
3xTC
2x6 LF Unprot, Avg, Drilled, Jav, Lt Spear (Almughavar skirmishers)
4x4 LH Unprot, Avg, Undrilled, Bow, Swd (Turcopoles)
2x4 LH Unprot, Avg, Undrilled, Bow, Jav, Lt Spear, Swd (Albanians)
4x6 MF Prot, Sup, Drilled, Off Spear (Almughavars)
3x4 CV Arm, Sup, Undrilled, Lancer-Swd (Cavall alforat)

15 BGs, PBI of 4. I see it more as a fast and manoeuvrable army than a wall of spears, so the knights don't really fit in.

[philqw78]

If you have the moogs in 6's you need an IC to protect from shooting.

[Catalan]

So based on the feedback, I've got like 3 variations and I think I'll just have to try them and see how it works out:

Option 1: 900 pts on the dot. +2 Init
4xTCs
2x6 LF w/Jav+Lt. Spear
4x4 LH w/bow-swd
6x6 MF Muggers
3x4 Cav Lancers

This is more fragile with the 6 base muggers, but more maneuverable. The skirmishers and bow-cav really have to dominate the edges and help for the player who loves Later Lithuanian and the other who's trying out Ayyubid Egyptian. The cavalry are going to be functionally a big distraction, so they hit hard enough that he can't ignore them but if I run into Knights its bad times.


Option 2: 900 pts. +2 Init
4xTCs
2x6 LF w/Jav+Lt. Spear
4x4 LH w/bow-swd
3x8 MF Muggers
2x6 MF Muggers
3x4 Cav Lancers

Basically this is the above, dropping 1 BG of muggers to make 3 of them with 8 bases. It definitely sets me in the some "some are flankers, and some are bruisers" approach to the muggers.

Option 3: 888 pts. +1 Init.
4xTCs
2x6 LF w/Jav+Lt. Spear
3x4 LH w/bow-swd
6x6 MF Muggers
2x4 Cav Lancers
1x4 Knights

I dunno about this one. It strikes me as a kind of 'worst of all world' because I don't feel I have enough knights to dominate, the muggers are still in fragile 6s, and I drop a BG of LH. Plus I lose an Init bonus.


Option 4: 900 pts. +1 Init
4xTCs
2x6 LF w/Jav+Lt. Spear
3x4 LH w/bow-swd
5x8 MF Muggers
3x4 Cav Lancers

Another compromise, dropping one unit of LH to make all the muggers 8 bases. I'm dropping down on the init and a base of muggers, but I have them all at very respectable numbers.


I dunno. The game play here varies. About half the players play games where most of the fight is maneuvering until you get the match ups you want. The other half take Dominate Romans or Free Company, put their heads down, and try to bust the enemy up.

[david53]

So based on the feedback, I've got like 3 variations and I think I'll just have to try them and see how it works out:

Option 1: 900 pts on the dot. +2 Init
4xTCs
2x6 LF w/Jav+Lt. Spear
4x4 LH w/bow-swd
6x6 MF Muggers
3x4 Cav Lancers

This is more fragile with the 6 base muggers, but more maneuverable. The skirmishers and bow-cav really have to dominate the edges and help for the player who loves Later Lithuanian and the other who's trying out Ayyubid Egyptian. The cavalry are going to be functionally a big distraction, so they hit hard enough that he can't ignore them but if I run into Knights its bad times.

Fought this army at Burton the opponents were good players but IMO it had a slight problum their medium foot was in 8's which we never touched throughout the game but broke the 1 x Knights, 2 x Cavalry 2 x LH and 1x LF plus the camp. What I'm saying is don't get side tracked with this army take as many Medium foot as you can or the enemy will defeat what they can leaving the rest. Try not to fight on the steppe if you can help it.

[Catalan]

Try not to fight on the steppe if you can help it.

Yeah there's a guy who plays a lot of horse archer type armies. He always tries to get the +4 for Steppe. Then he takes the 'bad' terrain so he can control where it goes. So my options will be a) play on the steppe or b) don't play him.

[philqw78]

I also think you are trying to get too much. Don't take all the Cav. Its expensive. Take the minimum. Use albanian LH as its 1 point cheaper and more aggressive (Lt Sp at impact and sword for melee), if you have point left get the Knights. Chances are you will want to move first as you are drilled and fast moving. Most stuff is superior or it can get out of the way, so go for a couple of FC as generals.

[azrael86]

Really think about having some 8's - even to the point of dropping the knights. Almughavars in 8's usually beat knights, even in the open. If you are playing catalan then you should be maxing the MF. If you want knights and some almughavars then there are better lists - Latin or Crown of Aragon.

Also don't try to be too clever in manoevre, get stuck in. You're not the dominate romans!

[ethan]

Try not to fight on the steppe if you can help it.

Yeah there's a guy who plays a lot of horse archer type armies. He always tries to get the +4 for Steppe. Then he takes the 'bad' terrain so he can control where it goes. So my options will be a) play on the steppe or b) don't play him.

Your first list will do just fine out on the steppes against horse archers IMO.

[hazelbark]

Try not to fight on the steppe if you can help it.

Yeah there's a guy who plays a lot of horse archer type armies. He always tries to get the +4 for Steppe. Then he takes the 'bad' terrain so he can control where it goes. So my options will be a) play on the steppe or b) don't play him.

Don't worry Catalans are quite deadly to that kind of army.

You are wider and can run him down. Once he commits to fight part of your army he can get away. The trick is to not send your lancers off unsupported in pursuit. Keep them in tandem with foot.

[hazelbark]

Really think about having some 8's - even to the point of dropping the knights. Almughavars in 8's usually beat knights, even in the open. If you are playing catalan then you should be maxing the MF. If you want knights and some almughavars then there are better lists - Latin or Crown of Aragon.

Also don't try to be too clever in manoevre, get stuck in. You're not the dominate romans!

Its a differnt kind of manuver. Its force over a broader front and hard to be beaten in detail.

[azrael86]

Try not to fight on the steppe if you can help it.

Yeah there's a guy who plays a lot of horse archer type armies. He always tries to get the +4 for Steppe. Then he takes the 'bad' terrain so he can control where it goes. So my options will be a) play on the steppe or b) don't play him.

Let him have the initiative - you want the double move on turn 1!

Unless he's i) very good or ii) Ottomann/Hungarian/Serbian you should be OK. In the event that he is both of these, I suggest b).

[Catalan]

Try not to fight on the steppe if you can help it.

Yeah there's a guy who plays a lot of horse archer type armies. He always tries to get the +4 for Steppe. Then he takes the 'bad' terrain so he can control where it goes. So my options will be a) play on the steppe or b) don't play him.

Let him have the initiative - you want the double move on turn 1!

Unless he's i) very good or ii) Ottomann/Hungarian/Serbian you should be OK. In the event that he is both of these, I suggest b).

Somehow I missed this reply. Yeah, the guy in question is both very good and plays Later Lithuanian (Knights & lots of Superior Horse Archers). He even beat me pretty bad with a Yuan Chinese, but that's more because he's a very good player and I made a very bonehead set of mistakes.

But anyway, the Catalan Company is going on the shelf. Building an army with Medium Foot as your line troops is just no good. Its basically the same problem the barbarian Gauls/Germans/etc. have against the Romans. (Played these guys against the Romans, and saw it first hand). You pay points for being good in terrain, but the fight will usually be in the open.

[hazelbark]

But anyway, the Catalan Company is going on the shelf. Building an army with Medium Foot as your line troops is just no good. Its basically the same problem the barbarian Gauls/Germans/etc. have against the Romans. (Played these guys against the Romans, and saw it first hand). You pay points for being good in terrain, but the fight will usually be in the open.

I think there is a world of differece between drilled Superior Off Spear and undrilled average impact foot.

The Catalans are a very solid force but you have to believe in manuver and not head on clashes. There terrain is for where you fight through but manuver through.

Where are you located?