Asynchronous Manouvre.

[spartan]

Decidely the worst title of a topic so far, however I'd be interested to what extent this occurs in Art of War.

I have played a number of Warmaster games, a set of rules that I am not fond of. However the command method works very well indeed in my view. In essence a "command" is diced for and can continue until it fails or the player decides not to continue. That command cannot then be returned to.

The result is that commands can overcommit, or assume that a second command will support ( which promptly fails). Having commands that can be left hanging is a good rule in my view.
In DBM you are largely guaranteed of keeping a continuous line. If I dice 4,5,6 and have three infantry commands I can simply decide to maintain the line and move only three PIPS forward.

Although a totally different set of rules, AK 47 and its medieval offshoot Bloody Barons allows for commands ending up shifting sideways, not turning up on time and so forth.

Is there anything in AOW that basically throws a similar spanner into the plans of the commander?

[rbodleyscott]

Is there anything in AOW that basically throws a similar spanner into the plans of the commander?

If you choose to make a "complex move" with a battle group, you have to take a test to do so. (What constitutes a "complex move" depends on troop type and training). If you fail you can still make a "simple move" with that battle group. However, whether you pass or fail you have to make that BG's move (if any) immediately after making the test. This can often mess up you plans, particularly if you really only wanted to move that BG first if it could make the "complex move".

Also, it is a "complex move" for shock troops not to charge enemy in reach. (A bit more complex than that, but that is the gist). However, charge declarations have to be made before any complex move tests for shock troops not to charge.

Say you have 3 BGs of shock troops in a line, but you would prefer not to charge this turn because supports have not yet arrived. Do you risk not charging? If you decide not to charge, you will have to take a "complex move" test for each BG separately. If one fails and the others don't, it will charge in by itself, and it is too late to declare a charge with the other two. Thus it will often be better not to risk it, but to declare a charge straight-away with all 3 BGs even though the situation is not ideal.

[philqw78]

Aaaaargh! Charge declarations Please don't say this is something like earlier WRG stuff. Write all charges down, declare in the correct order, take a test, make the rules more complex, etc

[shall]

ok I won't because it isn't....you just move the figures in and get on with duffing each other up. Very uncomplex. It is more to allow the 2 phase of IMPACT and MELEE to work effectively.

Si

[whitehorses]

ok I won't because it isn't....you just move the figures in and get on with duffing each other up. Very uncomplex. It is more to allow the 2 phase of IMPACT and MELEE to work effectively.

Si

So Legionarries, Warband & Knights would have Impact Factors for the initial first contact, therafter, it's just down to hack & slash & Melee factors for everyone?

BTW, would Elephants have Impact factors as well?
I imagine that formed infantry being hit by a charging Elephant or two might have some concerns ...


Cheers,
Jer

[neilhammond]

So Legionarries, Warband & Knights would have Impact Factors for the initial first contact, therafter, it's just down to hack & slash & Melee factors for everyone?

BTW, would Elephants have Impact factors as well?
I imagine that formed infantry being hit by a charging Elephant or two might have some concerns ...
Cheers,
Jer

Turns are alternate, so at the start of your turn you simply declare who will charge. The target's response (e.g. mounted countercharging mounted, foot bracing to receive a cavalry charge, etc) is assumed to be automatic and is factored in; you don't need to move the figures if there is a countercharge like you did in 6th? 7th?, or break moves down into quarters or anything like that.

In essence, as you indicate, Legionaries, Warband, Knights, pikes will have a higher factor at impact than most other troops. Once the impact combat is over the subsequent combats are melee combats, where factors such as armour, cohesion and depth will influence the factors (provided you haven't been unlucky and get swept away in the first impact).

Elephants are a pain (if you're facing them). I can personally attest that formed infantry do suffer against elephants. I wrote up a report a few a weeks ago on this - romans vs sassanids

Neil

[whitehorses]

So Legionarries, Warband & Knights would have Impact Factors for the initial first contact, therafter, it's just down to hack & slash & Melee factors for everyone?

BTW, would Elephants have Impact factors as well?
I imagine that formed infantry being hit by a charging Elephant or two might have some concerns ...
Cheers,
Jer

In essence, as you indicate, Legionaries, Warband, Knights, pikes will have a higher factor at impact than most other troops. Once the impact combat is over the subsequent combats are melee combats, where factors such as armour, cohesion and depth will influence the factors (provided you haven't been unlucky and get swept away in the first impact).

Elephants are a pain (if you're facing them). I can personally attest that formed infantry do suffer against elephants. I wrote up a report a few a weeks ago on this - romans vs sassanids
Neil

So having Impact Troops of some sort is a definite plus, just the thing to break through a wall'-o-spear-ho-hum-yawn-army
Can Impact troops hurt skirmishers too, or is it still like trying to capture mist?

Can anything hurt Elephants apart from Bows, Arty & Skirmishers?
Pikes & Spears should in theory be able to hold their own, but anything else might be relying upon Superior/Elite factors to save them....



Cheers,
Jer

[hammy]

So having Impact Troops of some sort is a definite plus, just the thing to break through a wall'-o-spear-ho-hum-yawn-army
Can Impact troops hurt skirmishers too, or is it still like trying to capture mist?

If you can catch skirmishers they generally die very quickly. I have lost skirmishers to Roman legionaries when I was not as careful as I should have been.

Can anything hurt Elephants apart from Bows, Arty & Skirmishers?

Err, slings, crossbows

More seriously Elephants can be beaten but being in close combat with them is not the kind of thing you want to do on a regular basis. I seem to remember beating elephants with archers in close combat (OK, I did have 12 bases against 2) and also with Visigoth warriors (I got lucky).

Hammy

[neilhammond]

So having Impact Troops of some sort is a definite plus, just the thing to break through a wall'-o-spear-ho-hum-yawn-army
Jer

Knights are good, but will struggle against good spearmen and pikes, and may struggle to catch light horse...

Warband and Legionaries are good against spear walls, but are vulnerable to knights & cavalry.

Spears are a good all-round troop, generally better than Impact foot against mounted, but vulnerable to mass impact foot.

And so on.

Neil

[SMK-at-work]

Ah - Impact = + for HTW or JLS at first contact...

[neilhammond]

Ah - Impact = + for HTW or JLS at first contact...

Yessss ish .... in essense anyone classed as impact foot (warband, legionaries, other similar shock-foot)
will have an edge against other non-impact foot (except pikes) at first contact.

[whitehorses]

So having Impact Troops of some sort is a definite plus, just the thing to break through a wall'-o-spear-ho-hum-yawn-army
Can Impact troops hurt skirmishers too, or is it still like trying to capture mist?

If you can catch skirmishers they generally die very quickly. I have lost skirmishers to Roman legionaries when I was not as careful as I should have been.


Finaly a decent set of rules where skirmishers are no longer invulnerable

Can anything hurt Elephants apart from Bows, Arty & Skirmishers?

Err, slings, crossbows

More seriously Elephants can be beaten but being in close combat with them is not the kind of thing you want to do on a regular basis. I seem to remember beating elephants with archers in close combat (OK, I did have 12 bases against 2) and also with Visigoth warriors (I got lucky).

Hammy

So are Pikes the only Troop that can cope with Jumbos in melee? Or is it just better all round to give fighting them a miss & shoot them to death *s*

Wonder if a WotR Army is the perfect answer to an elephant army?
Heavy Arty, Longbows, Stakes & lots of skirmishers...


Cheers,
Jer

[shall]

So are Pikes the only Troop that can cope with Jumbos in melee? Or is it just better all round to give fighting them a miss & shoot them to death *s*

Wonder if a WotR Army is the perfect answer to an elephant army?
Heavy Arty, Longbows, Stakes & lots of skirmishers...


Cheers,
Jer

the best approach to jumbos in melee is ..not to...

the best anti-elephants device - LF with Jav sirmishing them and evading away from them

Solid long stick blocks do pretty well

but the most realistic counter is jav armed LF, which is realistic. And you need to shoot with them rather than get into contact too much as well.

Si