Base removal from shooting

[Maniakes]

At the Oxford FOG:R day I ran into a few different interpretations of the base removal rules on p151. Being an amiable chap I just went with what each of my opponents thought was right, but it does probably warrant some discussion.

Consider a shooting match between 2 BGs of Pike and Shot (4 musketeers and 2 Pike each). If one removes a Pike for it's first casualty and the other a musket that will significantly affect the subsequent firefight. How is the first casualty decided? The rules say "nearest base to the shooter that obeys the proportional loss rule" and "proportional loss rule: after the first base loss to a BG base losses must always (when there is a choice)be taken in proportion ..."

Interpretations for first base loss I have run across include:

1) Always the musket first (because that keeps the proportions best)

2) Always the owners choice, meaning usually Pike (because it says after the first casualty)

3) Closest to the firing (or alternatively to the BG causing the most casualties) which unless the BGs are exactly parallel usually means a musket. Though it is possible to contrive positions where your Pike and your opponents musket are the closest bases (... and do we want to encourage that sort of micro measuring?)

4) as a supplement to 3) where the BGs are exactly parallel it is back to owner's choice

[timmy1]

Dave

Agree that it is not entirely obvious but it is clear with a close reading. I had this come up when introducing a player and was going to post it as a RQ but reading it brought me to an understanding.

Page 151 has the key parts, some of which you quote.

"Other shooting (the other referring to the previous 'Long range shooting by artillery' on P150): the nearest base to the shooters that obeys the proportional loss rule." There is a Swedish brigade exception.

"If the bases are of equal priority, the battle group's owner chooses which to remove".

"Where there is a choice of which base to remove, a base must be removed in accordance with the proportional loss rule: After the first base loss to a battle group, base losses from mixed battle groups must always (when there is a choice) be taken in proportion to the relative strengths of the different consitiuents of the battle group until the original proportions are restored."

Assuming that it is not Long range artillery shooting and the target is not a Swedish Brigade, the answer is.

The first base loss it chosen by the battle group owner as the proportional loss rule only kicks in 'After the first base loss to a battle group'. There really can't be any other that I can see.

It really depends if the battle group owner is going to stand and firefight, if he fears enemy mounted, or if he wants to charge in.

Hope that help.

[jonphilp]

Hi,

We have had the same discussions at our club over the interpretation of the rule regarding base removal. It has become the convention to remove a pike base first unless the loss is due to enfilade fire. The rational being that the Pike are in close order as heavy infantry and as mostly unarmoured are a better target. Perhaps this is an issue for clarification if various interpretations are being made.

[kadeshuk]

Unless the lines of battle run parallel, it is most likely that non-long range artillery missile duels will result first in the loss of a shot base, after which almost certainly a pike base. I asked this question about 6 weeks ago.
If the units are parallel and nearly opposite, then it would be owners choice. However, we find that most often some manouver of units results in losses of shot first.

[rbodleyscott]

Unless the lines of battle run parallel, it is most likely that non-long range artillery missile duels will result first in the loss of a shot base, after which almost certainly a pike base. I asked this question about 6 weeks ago.
If the units are parallel and nearly opposite, then it would be owners choice. However, we find that most often some manouver of units results in losses of shot first.

Correct

[Maniakes]

Unless the lines of battle run parallel, it is most likely that non-long range artillery missile duels will result first in the loss of a shot base, after which almost certainly a pike base. I asked this question about 6 weeks ago.
If the units are parallel and nearly opposite, then it would be owners choice. However, we find that most often some manouver of units results in losses of shot first.

Correct

Though that doesn't answer the point Timmy made and which I had made to me. The logic goes:

1) All the other criteria (like closeness) are in sentences that refer to proportional loss which is therefore the overriding criterion.

2) proportional loss says "after the first base loss"

3) therefore the first base is always the owners choice.

I can see logic in each of the arguments I gave at the top and will be fine with whichever is settled on.

[kadeshuk]

and here is the link......
viewtopic.php?t=20484

[Maniakes]

and here is the link......
viewtopic.php?t=20484

In which RBS says "...and as the battle group is at full strength, the proportional loss rules does not yet apply. However, the next base lost must obey the proportional loss rule, so must be a pike base "

But that isn't what the RAW says in my and Timmy's reading. It looks to us that the proportional loss rule itself specifies that the first base is owners choice (by saying "after"). I'm not too bothered, as I say, but I do think it is at least worth a FAQ clarification.

[deadtorius]

we always play players choice first, so usually a pike goes down, unless its very obvious the shot was the closest target, then it gets removed. I believe somewhere it states that artillery always takes a pike out first at long range, since they are a close formation dense target, then the shot follow in proportion.

[rbodleyscott]

3) therefore the first base is always the owners choice.

Only if there is no other overriding criterion (such as that the shot base is nearer to the enemy non-artillery shooters than the pike base).

[Maniakes]

3) therefore the first base is always the owners choice.

Only if there is no other overriding criterion (such as that the shot base is nearer to the enemy non-artillery shooters than the pike base).

I understand that that was your intention and I'm really not trying to be picky or deliberately obscurantist (honestly!) but you can see from some of the comments above, and I found from comments at Oxford, that this is not how the rule is understood by some of its readers. Hence I suggest a FAQ is needed.

[rbodleyscott]

and here is the link......
viewtopic.php?t=20484

In which RBS says "...and as the battle group is at full strength, the proportional loss rules does not yet apply. However, the next base lost must obey the proportional loss rule, so must be a pike base "

But that isn't what the RAW says in my and Timmy's reading. It looks to us that the proportional loss rule itself specifies that the first base is owners choice (by saying "after"). I'm not too bothered, as I say, but I do think it is at least worth a FAQ clarification.

Well it would help if you quoted the full thing:

Shooting: The nearest base to the shooters that obeys the proportional loss rule.

So if the target BG and shooting BG are at an angle , usually the first base lost from the BG will be a shot base, because it is likely to be the nearest, and as the battle group is at full strength, the proportional loss rules does not yet apply. However, the next base lost must obey the proportional loss rule, so must be a pike base - the nearest pike base to the shooters.

Simples.

If the nearest target base (to non-artillery shooters) is the shot, then the proportional base rule (as you correctly say) does not specify any priority for the first loss, hence the shot base is the nearest base that obeys the proportional loss rule. (Substitute "does not disobey" if that makes it any easier to follow).

Hence the shot base is removed.

The next base removed would have to be a pike base.

No doubt an FAQ will be required, but the above does conform to the RAW.

[marshalney2000]

Richard, what is the situation in layer armies with only one pike base? Presumably it will either be the last or second last to die?
John

[kadeshuk]

Unless shat at only by long range artillery, in which case it dies 1st.... :>)

[rbodleyscott]

Unless shot at only by long range artillery, in which case it dies 1st.... :>)

No.

 Long range shooting by artillery only: If the target has different troop types or weapons, and they are currently in their original proportions, remove a base of the most numerous type without a shooting capability, unless the target has only one such base;

[rbodleyscott]

Richard, what is the situation in layer armies with only one pike base? Presumably it will either be the last or second last to die?

It won't be lost before the BG autobreaks.