Anyone have any games with the new lists of masses of Pike vs the TYW pike and shot?
Just curious.
Out of period
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marshalney2000
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timmy1
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Dan
Not sure it proves anything as I can lose every game with Swedes, but before GBGs were added, I played in the 2009 Beta tourney at Rollcall with Swiss. I came up against Jim Gibson's Later Imperialist army and got a bloody nose. The killer is that he has (more) mobile mounted to pin your flanks, heavier artillery so you can't corner sit, and musket out ranges your arquebus. It is even worse now that Foot Battle Troops need a CMT to charge mounted - without it I surprised Jim when a keil hit one BG of mounted and stepped forwards into another. He did not allow that to occur again.
After that RBS, Nik, and I agreed that the best Swiss army is the Italian Wars French. Madaxeman's site shows a game demonstrating that (and your early vs TYW question).
My opinion is that in games between players of equal skill and experience, the early armies will struggle against almost any post 1590/1620 army.
Regards
Tim
Not sure it proves anything as I can lose every game with Swedes, but before GBGs were added, I played in the 2009 Beta tourney at Rollcall with Swiss. I came up against Jim Gibson's Later Imperialist army and got a bloody nose. The killer is that he has (more) mobile mounted to pin your flanks, heavier artillery so you can't corner sit, and musket out ranges your arquebus. It is even worse now that Foot Battle Troops need a CMT to charge mounted - without it I surprised Jim when a keil hit one BG of mounted and stepped forwards into another. He did not allow that to occur again.
After that RBS, Nik, and I agreed that the best Swiss army is the Italian Wars French. Madaxeman's site shows a game demonstrating that (and your early vs TYW question).
My opinion is that in games between players of equal skill and experience, the early armies will struggle against almost any post 1590/1620 army.
Regards
Tim
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quackstheking
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Hmmm - the winner of Godentag (the first 2011 FogR Doubles Tournament using the 1st 3 books) was won by a pikeless Huguenot list from 1580 expertly piloted by Paddy Bray and Alisdair Harley!!! Us Pike and Shot boys took a beating and my co pilot was Jim Gibson and we were using the infamous Late Imperial German Catholic army. The arquebus is deadly and being only medium doesn't disorder in rough and uneven ground as Pike does and it's shooting is deadly at its allowed ranges.
Jim and I are trying out Poles and Swedes on Thursday so we'll see how that goes.
Don
Jim and I are trying out Poles and Swedes on Thursday so we'll see how that goes.
Don
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marty
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Played a game of Maximillian Imperial (1510) against Scots Covenanter (1644 in England). The "masses of Pike" did just fine punching straight through some Pike/shot units. The Gendarmes were less impressive a 6 base superior unit struggled to beat about 1/2 their points value in english cav with commanded shot. They managed it in the end after losing 3 of their 6 bases.
Martin
Martin
Having experimented it seems plausible but far from easy. First outing as Irish (Tyrone's rebels) based on them being a bit of variety (and VERY cheap)!
At 800 pts I had 18 battlegroups, and 4 generals, including a GC.
2x6lf B
1x6 LF Jav
2x4 LH Jav, Lt Lance
1x4 Cav Jav, Lance
8 Galloglaich HF HW
6 Redshanks Warriors, Bw*, IF, Sw
3x6 Kerns Warriors Lt Spear
2 spanish later tercios (each 3 Pike, 6 arquebus)
2 kern keils, Poor Pike each 14
6 MF kerns with arquebus
Note - even though it's 1602, this is Ireland so the army has no artillery!
It also has no superior troops.
First up, Caroline Imperialist, who had a huge battery of artillery and no less than three early tercios, all of whom were much better than us. One tercio never made it to contact, having been shot to ribbons by the artillery. The rest of the army fared little better, except for the two flank units, one of LH who made it to the enemy baseline before getting blocked off, and one of incredibly slow warriors who were sent on a march over a steep hill in an attempt to flank charge the only troops I fancied fighting (the artillery) from the flank. Neither made it, but with the slightly gungho commitment of the O'Neill leading the remaining tercio - and dying on contact - the whole army (and in fact rather more than the whole army, as we forgot to count the routed kern keils as double) departed in under 3 hours.
Second opponent was Polish Lithuanian, who I suspected of having much better cavalry than me, although in fact there was quite a bit of foot too. Again artillery, but less of it, and fortunate terrain covered one flank. Evolving a plan to try and sweep over the terrain into the lightly covered end of the line whilst hoping that the tercios and keils could hold off two units of determined (and impressivley painted) winged hussars... fewer losses from shooting and some then a unit of LF got caught by cavalry just in front of the warriors it was trying to evade through. However LF don''t get a -1 for losing to cavalry in the open, and somehow they stuck at disrupted long enough for the IF to charge the cav in the flank. The rather unimpressed superior cav, lacking the determination, routed. This was compensated for by the polish musketeers who managed to dispatch a tercio, whilst the artillery shot a keil to disrupted before it coudl join in as an overlap. When it did, the tercio routed, and the keil followed suit.
Final game was against a much later opponent, the dutch, who also had opted for quantity over quality, but again they had artillery, and some decent cavalry, so were only 15 BG's. Similar terrain to the previous game saw a much more effective result, although one keil(which was now positioned to take the fire from the guns) did take serious losses, losing 4 bases before reaching contact. The chasing cavalry with a tercio also brought rewards, but again time intervened, albeit with 4 enemy units fragmented (and none of mine lost, although the keil had dodged a couple of death rolls to avoid auto break).
So what can be concluded - it certainly seems possible to make this type of army work, although the invulnerability of the Imperialists made it very difficult to do anything because I wasn't able to make them take death rolls to any extent. Losing the GC only speeded the inevitable, other than hiding in a corner (and Irish isn't well suited to that, being a mere 114 bases) it wasn't obvious what I could have done, except possibly sacrifice units individually.
The lower quality opposition was easier to handle, although the second game did have two apparently odd results, one due to LF passing 2 CT's and the other musketeers rolling spectacularly at impact against the tercio.
Benefits to the army - Irish can afford rear support and a GC which makes CT fails to shooting rare: however the GC doesn't stop you losing bases which saw off units in games 1 and 2 (and nearly did so in game 3). It might also have been better if I had ever remembered that the IF could shoot, too!
Doubtless Swiss (or indeed French with integral swiss) would provide a solider (but significantly smaller) option.
At 800 pts I had 18 battlegroups, and 4 generals, including a GC.
2x6lf B
1x6 LF Jav
2x4 LH Jav, Lt Lance
1x4 Cav Jav, Lance
8 Galloglaich HF HW
6 Redshanks Warriors, Bw*, IF, Sw
3x6 Kerns Warriors Lt Spear
2 spanish later tercios (each 3 Pike, 6 arquebus)
2 kern keils, Poor Pike each 14
6 MF kerns with arquebus
Note - even though it's 1602, this is Ireland so the army has no artillery!
It also has no superior troops.
First up, Caroline Imperialist, who had a huge battery of artillery and no less than three early tercios, all of whom were much better than us. One tercio never made it to contact, having been shot to ribbons by the artillery. The rest of the army fared little better, except for the two flank units, one of LH who made it to the enemy baseline before getting blocked off, and one of incredibly slow warriors who were sent on a march over a steep hill in an attempt to flank charge the only troops I fancied fighting (the artillery) from the flank. Neither made it, but with the slightly gungho commitment of the O'Neill leading the remaining tercio - and dying on contact - the whole army (and in fact rather more than the whole army, as we forgot to count the routed kern keils as double) departed in under 3 hours.
Second opponent was Polish Lithuanian, who I suspected of having much better cavalry than me, although in fact there was quite a bit of foot too. Again artillery, but less of it, and fortunate terrain covered one flank. Evolving a plan to try and sweep over the terrain into the lightly covered end of the line whilst hoping that the tercios and keils could hold off two units of determined (and impressivley painted) winged hussars... fewer losses from shooting and some then a unit of LF got caught by cavalry just in front of the warriors it was trying to evade through. However LF don''t get a -1 for losing to cavalry in the open, and somehow they stuck at disrupted long enough for the IF to charge the cav in the flank. The rather unimpressed superior cav, lacking the determination, routed. This was compensated for by the polish musketeers who managed to dispatch a tercio, whilst the artillery shot a keil to disrupted before it coudl join in as an overlap. When it did, the tercio routed, and the keil followed suit.
Final game was against a much later opponent, the dutch, who also had opted for quantity over quality, but again they had artillery, and some decent cavalry, so were only 15 BG's. Similar terrain to the previous game saw a much more effective result, although one keil(which was now positioned to take the fire from the guns) did take serious losses, losing 4 bases before reaching contact. The chasing cavalry with a tercio also brought rewards, but again time intervened, albeit with 4 enemy units fragmented (and none of mine lost, although the keil had dodged a couple of death rolls to avoid auto break).
So what can be concluded - it certainly seems possible to make this type of army work, although the invulnerability of the Imperialists made it very difficult to do anything because I wasn't able to make them take death rolls to any extent. Losing the GC only speeded the inevitable, other than hiding in a corner (and Irish isn't well suited to that, being a mere 114 bases) it wasn't obvious what I could have done, except possibly sacrifice units individually.
The lower quality opposition was easier to handle, although the second game did have two apparently odd results, one due to LF passing 2 CT's and the other musketeers rolling spectacularly at impact against the tercio.
Benefits to the army - Irish can afford rear support and a GC which makes CT fails to shooting rare: however the GC doesn't stop you losing bases which saw off units in games 1 and 2 (and nearly did so in game 3). It might also have been better if I had ever remembered that the IF could shoot, too!
Doubtless Swiss (or indeed French with integral swiss) would provide a solider (but significantly smaller) option.
Thanks, Azrael, for the account. The exotic nature of the Irish makes them intriguing - they require some thought and cunning.
Was it a head on "shoot me but I grind you down in close combat" situation?marshalney2000 wrote:Not quite but I did take apart a late Louis the 14th army from book 5 with a Scots Flodden army.
John
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marshalney2000
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rbodleyscott
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marshalney2000
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Vespasian28
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Andy1972
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Had a fun game the other night with my Kalmar Union vs Polish-Lithuanian had to call the game because of time, both armies had three units routed and he had one unit fraged.. My unit of 16 pike rolled his mixed battle groups.(unless we messed something up) My hvy weapon/xbow units were even with his on POA's.. It helped i had some hot dice when it came to not dieing when being shot at.. His light horse and dragoons with guns scared the crap out of my mounted xbow.(disrupted them) So i charged and was able to catch one of his units in the rear.(6/1 him) The game was still in the balance when the game was called. Gonna try the Swiss next game. 
Po-tae-toes! Mash 'em up and put 'em in a stew!