artillery short range - what advantage ?

[switze01]

Hi

Must be missing something - where is the advantage at short range for artillery
No POA s no more dice ?

Steve

[quackstheking]

No advantages!!

The effects are:-

1. Change in target Priorities that kicks in from 8MU's (see p.107 Target Priorities)
2. Reduction in Arc of fire from 2 base widthsto 1 base width (see p.107 Arc of fire)

The moral of the story is shoot them early!

[nickdives]

This has come up before, the reason given being there was no grape/canister shot. Daniel S then put up some photos of Swedish Grape shot from the period and mentioned that Wallenstein had used it at Lutzen. What is not clear is whether it was just Regt Arty that had it, so having a Regt gun gives one an extras die/dice, or whether all forms of arty had it.

[Piker]

Wasn't it known as "hailshot" in this era?

[deadtorius]

perhaps it was referred to as "overlooked in the rules" shot

[bahdahbum]

"Grapeshot" was used during the middle ages . peebles, stones, nails ...anything would be used at short range . So no wonder it was used during the TYW .

What surprises me is that the swedish artillery has not the opportunity to be "superior" due to their professionnalism ( compare to the other armies ) , the first army to have some standartisation in guns and some prepared shots .

Of interest might be :

http://theminiaturespage.com/boards/msg.mv?id=132640

Regimental cannon were issued both roundshot and grapeshot. These were then attached to a powder charge with cloth, wire and glue to create a cartridge.

or

http://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthrea ... -1617-1629

Once Gustavus entered Germany in 1630, the 'leather gun' had been replaced by the 4 lb. Piece Suedoise, made of heavier substance, if slightly less mobile; a third man was required, along with two horses to handle it. This regimental gun was supreme, and could fire eight rounds of grapeshot to every six shots by a musketeer. This was possible because its design involved a new artillery cartridge, in which the shot and repellant charge were wired together to expedite holding

That's a beginning

[bahdahbum]

in french

http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artillerie_de_campagne

L'autre nation qui innove beaucoup dans le domaine de l'artillerie de campagne est la Suède de Gustave Adolphe. L'apport est là plus dans la doctrine d'emploi. L'armée suédoise de l'époque répartit son artillerie en trois branches : la lourde, destinée à agir lors des sièges et des phases statiques de la guerre, celle de campagne qui accompagne les troupes, et l'artillerie légère régimentaire qui les appuie au plus près. Cette dernière est la grande innovation du roi suédois, qui lui permet d'aligner une artillerie plus nombreuse et plus efficace que ses adversaires : elle emploie des petits canons très légers, surnommés les « canons de cuir bouilli » du fait de leur mode de fabrication, une âme en cuivre encerclée par du fer et recouverte de cuir. Ces pièces, d'un calibre de quatre ou trois livres, peuvent être déplacées par un ou deux chevaux, voire à bras d'homme, et utilisent des boulets encartouchés, qui leur confèrent une cadence de tir phénoménale pour l'époque, huit coups par minute, alors qu'un bon mousquetaire ne tire que six fois. Par la suite, des canons de quatre livres en fonte de fer leur succèderont, tout en gardant leur légèreté : 625 livres affût compris.

But it also says that most of the field artillery would be 12 pounders, not heavy 24 .

[puster]

I think it was left out because reports of it used effectively in a battle are lacking.

If cannister had been used at Marignano or Bicocca, vs. dense packs of infantry, we would have heard of it. While the sort of ammunition probably existed - certainly for usage on ships in smaller ordnonannce - reports on EFFECTIVE usage (or their potential usage being part in tactical decisions) on the battlefield are largely lacking for most of the period covered by FOG-R.

[bahdahbum]

Well, there seem to be reports on how effective it was during the TYW

During some battles, artillery proved rather innefective, in others it was deadly . As to why ...it is sometimes very difficult to know why . I remember reading something about swiss keils, in one battle it could not be stopped, even when it attacked the artillery frontaly . 7 years latter , the keils were destroyed by the same kind of artillery .

Swedish artillery had a good reputation during TYW . It was known to use grapeshot- not to mistake for cannister - . Most of the artillery innovations of TYW would take years to be implemented in other nations ( even 100-150 years ... later ) .

Now at short range, I would say the a + factor shoudl be considered for the light guns and regimental artillery . But it is only my own opinion based on some reading .

[gibby]

I say, leave well alone. My experience with artillery is as exactly as you described it. Some games its super effective and some games its bloody awful.
Seems to me we already have the overall effect .

cheers
Jim

[quackstheking]

Fully agree with Jim - leave it as it is. I can't understand why we want to change the rules so early in their life particularly after such intensive playtesting.

Artillery can be great in some games and can be a complete waste of points in others - in my game on Thursday my opponants artillery, shot to pieces two of my Swedish Brigades yet mine seemed to have wet powder!!! We already have the historical effect and I for one would not want to see artillerys effectiveness increased. Giving artillery a plus would be hitting on 3+ and before long we'd see Napoleonic type grand batterys and everyone will be fielding Turks!!!

Don

[bahdahbum]

Napoleonic batteries used the swedish techniques

But it is a game .

To me, it seems a + at SHORT range, would feel right . How many times do you come at short range frontally ?

Still it might be good for light artillery

[timmy1]

I would have to see some conclusive primary evidence that short range light artillery fire not from behind fortifications was enough to stop troops in period before I would want any change. Nothing I have read supports that.

[Piker]

I would like to be able to regularly eviscerate my Imperial enemies with my Swedish artillery so, for that reason alone, would be in favor of such a rule change. Thus endeth the homily.

[deadtorius]

perhaps the special ammo was primarily used in the RG's so the 0 POA may reflect that, otherwise it seems like lucky dice indicate that your artillery got some and poor die rolls means they didn't get the good ammo that day.

[timmy1]

Piker, me too. However I suspect that not liking Imperialists isn't enough for a change to the rules... :)

[bahdahbum]

I spoke only pf RG and light guns, not medium and heavy . It was just an idea .

By the way what is "conclusive" . It depends on the point of view .

There is an acount on how the swedish did move their 24 pounders 3 times during a battle , a bit like in napoleonic times . Is that conclusive enough ? it is written by their ennemy

There are pictures of the new swedish ammunition , but it seems not conclusive enough . Sorry, cannot do better .

But I am happy to let the rules as they are . No rule will ever be perfect, no rule will be accepted 100 % . The rules, as a whole, work and that is enough for me .

[rbodleyscott]

I spoke only pf RG and light guns, not medium and heavy . It was just an idea .

By the way what is "conclusive" . It depends on the point of view .

There is an acount on how the swedish did move their 24 pounders 3 times during a battle , a bit like in napoleonic times . Is that conclusive enough ? it is written by their ennemy

There are pictures of the new swedish ammunition , but it seems not conclusive enough . Sorry, cannot do better .

But I am happy to let the rules as they are . No rule will ever be perfect, no rule will be accepted 100 % . The rules, as a whole, work and that is enough for me .

Jacques, the rules are top-down, not bottom-up.

In bata testing, artillery did have extra dice at close range, but they proved unhistorically deadly.

The current effect of artillery under the rules gets the overall effect we are aiming at.

[bahdahbum]

More or less what I said : The rules, as a whole, work and that is enough for me .

Now I have not done the playtesting and have not the benefit of many games . I still wait my miniatures and play with antique or med units ....but with JILU I try to play at least once a month FOGR ( and FOGAM and testV2 )

If my early Gustavian swedish army is painted in time, I'll try FOGR at Britcon

[timmy1]

Would like to see that Early Gustavian Swedish army at Britcon.