Charging without orders

ottomanmjm · Post by **ottomanmjm** » Tue Feb 01, 2011 1:46 am

We had an unusual situation in a game last week. A 4 base wide BG of Impact foot was partly behind (2 bases behind friends, 2 bases facing enemy) a friendly mounted BG and in range of enemy troops. This BG failed its CMT to not charge the enemy. The friendly mounted BG in front was not in contact with the enemy but had declared a charge. The mounted BG moved first and contacted the enemy. The Impact foot then charged but could not avoid the mounted troops or burst through them. What should have happened?

Should the Impact foot stop at the rear of the mounted troops, with the two bases that could contact the enemy stepping forwards into contact or should the entire foot BG stop when contacting friends already in contact with the enemy?

Regards
Martin

sadista · Post by **sadista** » Tue Feb 01, 2011 2:05 am

The foot could contract in a column and attempt to reach the enemy bg. Potentially ending in an overlap with side edge to side edge contact with the friendly mounted. Still contacting the enemy with corner to corner.

ottomanmjm · Post by **ottomanmjm** » Tue Feb 01, 2011 11:09 pm

sadista wrote:The foot could contract in a column and attempt to reach the enemy bg. Potentially ending in an overlap with side edge to side edge contact with the friendly mounted. Still contacting the enemy with corner to corner.

In the situation I described there were two bases of the foot BG behind the mounted BG and a charge can only contract by one base to avoid friends, so a legal contraction would not get the foot BG into combat.

philqw78 · Post by **philqw78** » Tue Feb 01, 2011 11:25 pm

IIRC a charge that cannot be completed is cancelled, even if you failed the test

gozerius · Post by **gozerius** » Wed Feb 02, 2011 1:45 am

Probably that statement was put in the rules to cover just this type of situation.

lawrenceg · Post by **lawrenceg** » Wed Feb 02, 2011 5:56 pm

philqw78 wrote:IIRC a charge that cannot be completed is cancelled, even if you failed the test

IIRC there is no such statement in the rules (I could be wrong about this, but as this kind of question pops up frequently, I'm probably right. For the same reason, there may be something in FAQ).

In some situations, the criteria for "do not test and will not charge" may be met only after the test has been failed, in which case IMO the "will not charge" bit still applies. In that case the charge would be cancelled.

Also IIRC it says in the rules that a BG in this situation MUST burst through the friends. Therefore you are not allowed to move the cavalry in first to prevent the burst-through, but must move the foot first so they can burst through them.

philqw78 · Post by **philqw78** » Wed Feb 02, 2011 7:13 pm

P54 is the bit about formation changes. P58 about shock. Its a matter of which takes pecedence. But it does say "must" burst through on P58. So burst through the non-shock before they charge, which is nice as they will then charge disrupted, unless enough of the shock get in the way to cancel their charge as in P54

philqw78 · Post by **philqw78** » Wed Feb 02, 2011 7:22 pm

lawrenceg wrote:IIRC there is no such statement in the rules (I could be wrong about this, but as this kind of question pops up frequently, I'm probably right. For the same reason, there may be something in FAQ).

I think its the bit in your signature about Dave you are probably right about

david53 · Post by **david53** » Wed Feb 02, 2011 7:46 pm

philqw78 wrote:
lawrenceg wrote:IIRC there is no such statement in the rules (I could be wrong about this, but as this kind of question pops up frequently, I'm probably right. For the same reason, there may be something in FAQ).
I think its the bit in your signature about Dave you are probably right about

I had this happen to me, a charge by two enemy BG's and one could'nt move its full distance because the other BG got in its way.

It therefore got to charge could'nt charge and then moved in the movement phase two bites of the cherry I said but was ruled against.

Its on one of the threads can't remember which one.

bbotus · Post by **bbotus** » Thu Feb 03, 2011 7:33 am

david53
I had this happen to me, a charge by two enemy BG's and one couldn't move its full distance because the other BG got in its way.

IIRC, you had the 2 BGs side by side and chose to wheel the outside BG to get in the way of the other BG instead of charging both groups straight ahead or in the same line as would normally occur.

But a good point is raised. Page 54 as philqw78 references says that charges are canceled if the troops can't make contact. Page 58 says that shock troops do not test (and will not charge) if the friends are shock troops or already in melee. But FAQ 5 says that the melee is deemed to exist immediately after resolution of the impact combat. So in this case the charging cav are not shock troops and they are not deemed to be in melee until after the charge move of the shock infantry behind them. It is beginning to sound like the shock infantry must burst through the charging cav as per page 48 "Bursting Through Friends" and that the burst through must happen before the cav make their charge move. (Seems strange). But then, if the shock foot now block the charging cav, the cav move would be canceled.

Someone prove me wrong, please. I'd prefer that the cav charge into contact and then the shock foot wouldn't charge since the friends they can't avoid are in contact.

philqw78 · Post by **philqw78** » Thu Feb 03, 2011 8:20 am

bbotus wrote:Someone prove me wrong, please. I'd prefer that the cav charge into contact and then the shock foot wouldn't charge since the friends they can't avoid are in contact.

AND the firends move faster, AND the friends are in front. Pole position counts for nothing.

ottomanmjm · Post by **ottomanmjm** » Fri Feb 04, 2011 5:23 am

philqw78 wrote:
bbotus wrote:Someone prove me wrong, please. I'd prefer that the cav charge into contact and then the shock foot wouldn't charge since the friends they can't avoid are in contact.
AND the firends move faster, AND the friends are in front. Pole position counts for nothing.

After re-reading p58 it seems that the troops that charge without orders must move first and burst through the mounted. The last bullet point on p58 states:
Otherwise (cannot charge without avoiding friends) the battle group must take a CMT as normal. If it fails, it must burst through the friends.

This would seem to indicate that the charging player cannot decide the order of charges in this instance. The mounted charge would then be cancelled as it could not avoid the friends that burst through it to make contact.

zoltan · Post by **zoltan** » Fri Feb 04, 2011 6:51 am

ottomanmjm wrote:This would seem to indicate that the charging player cannot decide the order of charges in this instance. The mounted charge would then be cancelled as it could not avoid the friends that burst through it to make contact.

I disagree. In a situation where we have one declared charge and one failed CMT not to charge, we simply have two charges. We then move to the Charge moves sequence and the rules appear to be silent on who moves first; so the charging player choses. Say he moves the declared charge first into contact with the enemy. Next, the failed CMT charge moves with full rights. Of course the failed CMT charge can only drop by one file to avoid the friends (already in contact). If this is insufficient to allow the failed CMT charge to pass by then it will burst through the declared chagers already in contact, flicking the burst through bases out the back.

spikemesq · Post by **spikemesq** » Fri Feb 04, 2011 9:02 pm

zoltan wrote:
ottomanmjm wrote:This would seem to indicate that the charging player cannot decide the order of charges in this instance. The mounted charge would then be cancelled as it could not avoid the friends that burst through it to make contact.
I disagree. In a situation where we have one declared charge and one failed CMT not to charge, we simply have two charges. We then move to the Charge moves sequence and the rules appear to be silent on who moves first; so the charging player choses. Say he moves the declared charge first into contact with the enemy. Next, the failed CMT charge moves with full rights. Of course the failed CMT charge can only drop by one file to avoid the friends (already in contact). If this is insufficient to allow the failed CMT charge to pass by then it will burst through the declared chagers already in contact, flicking the burst through bases out the back.

Except the rules state that chargers do not burst through other troops in combat. If they cannot make contact after dropping a file, then the charge is canceled.

philqw78 · Post by **philqw78** » Fri Feb 04, 2011 11:47 pm

zoltan wrote:I disagree. In a situation where we have one declared charge and one failed CMT not to charge, we simply have two charges.

And the rules clearly state that BG that failed the test MUST burst through.

They can only burst through none shock BG, as they do not have to test if a failure would result in a burst through shock troops.

zoltan · Post by **zoltan** » Sat Feb 05, 2011 7:38 am

I was thinking of a situation like this:

__AAAA

BBBB
__CCCC

A is the enemy BG. B is a non shock BG that declares a charge on A. C is shock mounted which fails a CMT not to charge A.

B charges home; C charges home but has some bases that can not drop back to avoid friends B (by now already in contact with A) as no formation changes are allowed in a charge. So what happens to C - surely its charge is not cancelled?

SirGarnet · Post by **SirGarnet** » Sat Feb 05, 2011 8:16 am

Good example - i think I've figured it out.

The key language is on page 58

* "They do not test (and will not charge) if the friends are shock troops or already in melee."

This bullet applies "if they could not contact the enemy without passing through friends"

As someone mentioned, "Melee" per the FAQ commences when Impact resolution is over so does not apply to friends who have not already fought the enemy.

CCCC clearly does test, since the friends are not shock troops, and bursts through no matter who charges first since it can't contact AAAA any other way.

But what if BBBB and CCCC were shifted so CCCC could make it past BBBB as it stands but not if it charged? CCCC certainly tests. BBBB makes its charge move first as the active player chooses. Would CCCC burst through? Is that sentence above to be read as meaning

"They do not test (and even if they test and fail the test will not charge) if the friends are shock troops . . . "?

I think the answer is yes, since "will not charge" is in there for a reason and only has meaning if the test is taken and failed. So CCCC, though it failed the test, does not charge.

Makes sense?

ShrubMiK · Post by **ShrubMiK** » Sat Feb 05, 2011 8:14 pm

Makes sense to me.

ottomanmjm · Post by **ottomanmjm** » Thu Feb 10, 2011 2:51 am

MikeK wrote:Good example - i think I've figured it out.
The key language is on page 58
* "They do not test (and will not charge) if the friends are shock troops or already in melee."
This bullet applies "if they could not contact the enemy without passing through friends"
As someone mentioned, "Melee" per the FAQ commences when Impact resolution is over so does not apply to friends who have not already fought the enemy.
CCCC clearly does test, since the friends are not shock troops, and bursts through no matter who charges first since it can't contact AAAA any other way.
But what if BBBB and CCCC were shifted so CCCC could make it past BBBB as it stands but not if it charged? CCCC certainly tests. BBBB makes its charge move first as the active player chooses. Would CCCC burst through? Is that sentence above to be read as meaning
"They do not test (and even if they test and fail the test will not charge) if the friends are shock troops . . . "?
I think the answer is yes, since "will not charge" is in there for a reason and only has meaning if the test is taken and failed. So CCCC, though it failed the test, does not charge.
Makes sense?

Doesn't make much sense to me. When it is time to test the non-shock unit (BBBB) is not in melee. Even after it has charged into contact it is still not in melee as no comabt has been resolved. I think the (will not charge) part of the line on p58 is there to prevent people attempting to charge their BG's through friends when they feel like it is a good idea.

ottomanmjm · Post by **ottomanmjm** » Thu Feb 10, 2011 2:54 am

zoltan wrote:I disagree. In a situation where we have one declared charge and one failed CMT not to charge, we simply have two charges. We then move to the Charge moves sequence and the rules appear to be silent on who moves first; so the charging player choses. <snip>.

I would have thought that the fact that troops who fail their CMT to not charge "MUST" burst through friends is a good indication that the rules are not silent on who should charge first.