Graeco-Bactrian - cataphracts or cavalry lancers?

davids · Post by **davids** » Fri Feb 04, 2011 12:55 am

I'm dusting off my old Bactrians and wondering what is best for the Iranian Lancers (eg for an open tournament) - cataphracts or cavalry or a mix? Also are unprotected cavalry bow swordsmen any good or should I just stick with the LH variant?

Thanks

David

david53 · Post by **david53** » Fri Feb 04, 2011 7:07 am

All depends if the Cats are drilled, I would take drilled over undrilled cavalry.

Depends what you want to do with the Cav/LH if its just to skirmish i would take LH. Not seen to many unprotected Cavalry just once in my 76 comp games.

Still sure other Daves on here will say Cavalry Lancers are better

Nice to see another Dave on the forum

philqw78 · Post by **philqw78** » Fri Feb 04, 2011 8:25 am

Take all the Cavalry in 4's, drilled if you can afford it. Maybe 1 BG of cats as an extra threat, but its a luxury and must be drilled. Since you will now have enough cavalry you don't need the average Bw Sw cavalry. Average cavalry are pretty pooh anyway. This army is better at 800 than 900 pts. At 900 you have to start taking foot and other rubbish to spend the points.

recharge · Post by **recharge** » Fri Feb 04, 2011 12:58 pm

I was looking at this one too. On "Madaxeman" he reccomends the all mounted list, which is possible at 900.
What I can't figure out is what to do with it against heavy foot armies?? Even Cats are even against Romans at impact and +1 in melee. Against pike they are down in both (unless I'm missing something?).

If you take an all mounted list against a pike list, I doubt you would have enough "soft edges" to nibble at

Thoughts?

John

philqw78 · Post by **philqw78** » Fri Feb 04, 2011 1:23 pm

But you have the LH to get round the flanks, unless the pikes go wide, and then you can charge them frontally with the cav.

babyshark · Post by **babyshark** » Fri Feb 04, 2011 2:07 pm

It cannot be emphasized enough that Cats must be drilled.

Both Cav and Cats have their uses, and I have used both with some success. Cav are more maneuverable than Cats, even drilled Cats, but that Cats get that armor POA in melee that cannot be sneered at. My current favorite choice is mostly Cav with a BG or two of Cats mixed in for doing the heavy lifting.

Marc

recharge · Post by **recharge** » Fri Feb 04, 2011 3:37 pm

philqw78 wrote:But you have the LH to get round the flanks, unless the pikes go wide, and then you can charge them frontally with the cav.

Yes, but you are down one at impact and down one at melee, right? Not exactly a high odds technique

John

kevinj · Post by **kevinj** » Fri Feb 04, 2011 5:11 pm

The odds may not be too bad. If the Pike spread out to 4 bases wide by 2 deep they lose their POAs. They will still negate the Lance if steady, but Impact will be even.

In melee, if the Pike are not disrupted the Cav will get a POA for better armour, and another if the Pike have disrupted. Of course, If the Cav have not charged across the whole front of the pike block, they may have overlaps or be able to reform to get a POA fo their own.

david53 · Post by **david53** » Fri Feb 04, 2011 5:35 pm

kevinj wrote:The odds may not be too bad. If the Pike spread out to 4 bases wide by 2 deep they lose their POAs. They will still negate the Lance if steady, but Impact will be even.

In melee, if the Pike are not disrupted the Cav will get a POA for better armour, and another if the Pike have disrupted. Of course, If the Cav have not charged across the whole front of the pike block, they may have overlaps or be able to reform to get a POA fo their own.

The other thing is with a mounted force you fight when and who you want to, if pike are in your way CMT and turn and move(wait for the Boo's)

Being able to move about will save you a lot of grief, try and stay away from Pikes with your cavalry shoot at them with your LH get right close they can't catch you(yes thats right more Boo's)

I think Cats are great BTW but only drilled ones.

Dave

philqw78 · Post by **philqw78** » Fri Feb 04, 2011 11:52 pm

recharge wrote:
philqw78 wrote:But you have the LH to get round the flanks, unless the pikes go wide, and then you can charge them frontally with the cav.
Yes, but you are down one at impact and down one at melee, right? Not exactly a high odds technique

John

If the pikes go wide (2 deep) you are level or up. If they stay 4 deep you are down 2 at impact and 1 in melee, if cats or cav.

davids · Post by **davids** » Sat Feb 05, 2011 6:33 am

philqw78 wrote:Take all the Cavalry in 4's, drilled if you can afford it. Maybe 1 BG of cats as an extra threat, but its a luxury and must be drilled. Since you will now have enough cavalry you don't need the average Bw Sw cavalry. Average cavalry are pretty pooh anyway. This army is better at 800 than 900 pts. At 900 you have to start taking foot and other rubbish to spend the points.

Thanks for the tips. I find it a bit of an odd list; a bit short in numbers. Other lists like Classical Greek can get 160 bases of hoplites alone, over 1000 points of them, or 42 bases of Persian heavy cavalry in Late Achaemenid Persian but to go much over 800 points with the Bactrians the foot need to be taken, yet one of the few references to an army of the Bactrians was to 10,000 cavalry (if I remember correctly).

David

frederic · Post by **frederic** » Sat Feb 05, 2011 10:27 am

BTW, which miniatures for real Iranian lancers ?
Except the Kushan range from Khurasan it doesn't seem other manufacturers have some kind of Iranian lancers !

davids · Post by **davids** » Sat Feb 05, 2011 11:08 am

frederic wrote:BTW, which miniatures for real Iranian lancers ?
Except the Kushan range from Khurasan it doesn't seem other manufacturers have some kind of Iranian lancers !

20 odd years ago I bought 15mm Essex - complete with (now purely decorative) bow! I think they still have the same figure range. The Iranians are distinguished from the 'Greeks' by long hair, lack of helmet and slightly different clothes. I don't know if they have stood the test of time compared to other manufacturers these days, but they still look pretty good painted up.

For cataphract versions not sure. Seleucid, Skythian or Parthian? Back in the day they didn't have cataphracts in the army list...

David

ethan · Post by **ethan** » Sat Feb 05, 2011 5:09 pm

For an open tournament certainly take cavalry. The cataphracts have no place IMO in an open and cavalry lancers are very acceptable troop types in a variety of periods.

Fluffy · Post by **Fluffy** » Mon Feb 07, 2011 2:04 pm

Cats are nice to beef up your cav vs other cav, even if you have elephants the El can't do everything.
Have mostly cav though, you need to do lots of fancy running around stuff.

Irmin · Post by **Irmin** » Wed Feb 16, 2011 5:02 pm

Have this same question with Koryo Koreans, Drill Sup Cats or Drilled Sup Cv, a mix of each seems the best and try to get the best match ups for both.

philqw78 · Post by **philqw78** » Wed Feb 16, 2011 6:37 pm

In theme or period Cats are a waste as most foot have HvyWpn. And cavalry can normally get out of cats way if they need to.

fatismo · Post by **fatismo** » Wed Feb 16, 2011 8:34 pm

in a themed toruney cats are ok, in open go with cav.

fighting pike is all about timing, hit a pike block in the flank (back 2 files) with a LH and a cavalry in the front (but only the side you flank charged) and check your factors now, its looking pretty even, better yet if you disrupt the pike hes done for and if you don't both mounted units bounce

philqw78 · Post by **philqw78** » Wed Feb 16, 2011 9:34 pm

fatismo wrote:in a themed toruney cats are ok, in open go with cav.

I was amswering for the Koreans, who won't see many Pike in theme, but will see lots of Hvy Wpn