Interception

david53 · Post by **david53** » Sun Jan 30, 2011 6:43 pm

Right I was playing at the club today with Paul.

During our 5 hour game (we don't stick to the time limit) we only had to pick up the rule book once.

It was to do with an interception ruling.

The situtation was as follows.

It was Pauls move,

He had a line on 4 bases of Knights with a BG of my LH in front of them. To the knights rear within 4mu I had a BG of Bow/Sword.

Paul failed his test not to charge and I intercepted him with the Cavalry all clear at present.

Know this is were we disagreed:

I thought since it was a rear charge it cancelled out the knights charge which we both agreed. Since I thought it was a rear charge the interpection now became a charge and I could wheel to get more bases in contact. Paul thought I could only go forward 4mu as a standard interception hitting only with one base.

We went with Pauls idea.

We checked the rules but it did'nt seem clear.

Robert241167 · Post by **Robert241167** » Sun Jan 30, 2011 6:49 pm

Hi Dave

As far as I know you can only intercept straight ahead and it would not include a wheel so I think Paul is definately correct.

Rob

zeitoun · Post by **zeitoun** » Sun Jan 30, 2011 8:19 pm

I'm agree, no wheel and no step foward too.

Petefloro · Post by **Petefloro** » Sun Jan 30, 2011 8:44 pm

I think the knights' charge is cancelled as the interception is into it's the rear.

So the interception is treated like a normal charge.

Which means( because it's a normal charge) it can wheel to get more bases into contact.

And stepping forwards to contact would also apply as well.

Have a look at page 63, top right, second paragraph.

dave_r · Post by **dave_r** » Sun Jan 30, 2011 9:14 pm

Petefloro wrote:I think the knights' charge is cancelled as the interception is into it's the rear.

So the interception is treated like a normal charge.

Which means( because it's a normal charge) it can wheel to get more bases into contact.

And stepping forwards to contact would also apply as well.

Have a look at page 63, top right, second paragraph.

An intercept is by definition straight forward - no wheeling is allowed. Because you make contact you can, and indeed, must, step forward.

deadtorius · Post by **deadtorius** » Sun Jan 30, 2011 9:49 pm

Interceptions can only be straight forward so no wheeling

Petefloro · Post by **Petefloro** » Sun Jan 30, 2011 10:48 pm

Interceptions can only be straight forward so no wheeling

I agree, but in the OP's case the interception turns into a normal charge and the knights charge is cancelled because it started behind the Knights rear.So it's executed as a charge not an interception, so is allowed a wheel.

It's in the rules P63.

An intercept is by definition straight forward - no wheeling is allowed. Because you make contact you can, and indeed, must, step forward.

I don't you think you step forwards with an intercept move. a charge yes, but not an intercept - that's in the FAQ I believe.

zoltan · Post by **zoltan** » Mon Jan 31, 2011 6:55 am

The statement in the first column on page 63 that "An interception charge must be directly forward..." is qualified by the text and bullets that follow it (shadz off DBM M'lud).

Interesting, that while shifts, formation changes and interpenetrations are specifically prohibited, wheels are not. This could be sloppy drafting or (as I think Westminster style courts would rule) precisely intended. i.e. the RAW mean exactly what they say (and do not say).

As Peterfloro points out, page 63 (second column) clealry states that an intercept charge contacting a flank or rear "is treated as a normal flank/rear charge". This suggests to me that the interceptors have all the rights they would have if they were making a "normal" charge, except for any that have been proscribed in the earlier paragraphs. i.e. the interceptors can wheel.

philqw78 · Post by **philqw78** » Mon Jan 31, 2011 8:02 am

The FAQ aren't that helpful either

FAQ wrote:iv) INTERCEPTION CHARGES
Can an intercept charge include a wheel?
Only if it would otherwise result in the interceptors themselves being hit in the flank.
When does an interception charge step forward?
Charges are declared, interceptions are responses to such charges.
If the interceptors are intercepting the chargers from the front, both chargers and interceptors are in reality charging semisimultaneously.
However, for the sake of simple game play the interception charge is moved sufficiently to get in the way
of the original charge and then the original chargers are moved into contact. The interceptors do not make contact – they
therefore do not step forward. The original chargers step forward as usual.
Where an interception catches a BG in the flank or rear this is a different situation. The chargers’ move is cancelled and
effectively the interceptors charge them instead. In this case it is the interceptors that are making contact so they do step
forward.

Which I read to say intercpets may not wheel. And. An intercept into flank or rear does step forwards.

zeitoun · Post by **zeitoun** » Mon Jan 31, 2011 8:17 am

philqw78 wrote:The FAQ aren't that helpful either
FAQ wrote:iv) INTERCEPTION CHARGES
Can an intercept charge include a wheel?
Only if it would otherwise result in the interceptors themselves being hit in the flank.
When does an interception charge step forward?
Charges are declared, interceptions are responses to such charges.
If the interceptors are intercepting the chargers from the front, both chargers and interceptors are in reality charging semisimultaneously.
However, for the sake of simple game play the interception charge is moved sufficiently to get in the way
of the original charge and then the original chargers are moved into contact. The interceptors do not make contact – they
therefore do not step forward. The original chargers step forward as usual.
Where an interception catches a BG in the flank or rear this is a different situation. The chargers’ move is cancelled and
effectively the interceptors charge them instead. In this case it is the interceptors that are making contact so they do step
forward.
Which I read to say intercpets may not wheel. And. An intercept into flank or rear does step forwards.

Sorry, I forget this point.

ANother question : if a FRAG BG is the target of the charge who is intercepted to the rear, Did the frag BG test ? or the interception cancel the charge before?

philqw78 · Post by **philqw78** » Mon Jan 31, 2011 9:04 am

zeitoun wrote:ANother question : if a FRAG BG is the target of the charge who is intercepted to the rear, Did the frag BG test ? or the interception cancel the charge before?

No, as the charge is cancelled. If the charge is cancelled there is no charge, so no reason to test.

stenic · Post by **stenic** » Mon Jan 31, 2011 9:05 am

zeitoun wrote:
Sorry, I forget this point.

ANother question : if a FRAG BG is the target of the charge who is intercepted to the rear, Did the frag BG test ? or the interception cancel the charge before?

Order of events, page 168.

Intercept charges happen before CT for fragged BGs being charged.

Petefloro · Post by **Petefloro** » Mon Jan 31, 2011 9:55 am

Which I read to say intercpets may not wheel.

don't want to dwell on this for too long, but sorry, where does it say that?

The passage in the FAQ you refer to talks about stepping forwards by BGs whose intercept move changes to a normal charge because it is to the rear/flank of enemy BG.

It doesn't mention wheels, I know,or a normal charge, but the paragraph on p63 of the rules quite clearly states it is treated as a normal flank/rear charge.

Now normal charge in this context to me and to others I've played, means that it can do all the things a charging BG can do.Such as stepping forwards,wheeling (as long as it doesn't contact less bases)and I suppose dropping a base back if necessary as well.

That's the way we've played it anyway. Every one seemed happy.

Suppose it depends on how you interpret the meaning of a normal charge
,

philqw78 · Post by **philqw78** » Mon Jan 31, 2011 9:59 am

Petefloro wrote:
Which I read to say intercpets may not wheel.
don't want to dwell on this for too long, but sorry, where does it say that?

Erm, try the first sentence of the quote. Perhpas I should only try answering one question at once. Or you should read the answer in its entirety.

FAQ wrote:
iv) INTERCEPTION CHARGES
Can an intercept charge include a wheel?
Only if it would otherwise result in the interceptors themselves being hit in the flank.

Petefloro · Post by **Petefloro** » Mon Jan 31, 2011 10:31 am

i

v) INTERCEPTION CHARGES
Can an intercept charge include a wheel?
Only if it would otherwise result in the interceptors themselves being hit in the flank.

Erm, try the first sentence of the quote. Perhpas I should only try answering one question at once. Or you should read the answer in its entirety.

Erm, yes I did read the answer in it's entirety thanks.Did you read mine?

And what your talking about is interception charges.But it's not an interception charge any more is it?

It's a normal charge.( how many more times?)

How do I know this? Because it says so in the rules - Page 63 - have a look

philqw78 · Post by **philqw78** » Mon Jan 31, 2011 10:37 am

Which is where we have differences in understanding. If it is now a charge perahps it can now be also intercepted. And we go round in cricles. As I said the FAQ doesn't help greatly. And I also said that is how I read it.

peterrjohnston · Post by **peterrjohnston** » Mon Jan 31, 2011 10:52 am

philqw78 wrote:
FAQ wrote:The interceptors do not make contact – they therefore do not step forward.

What a fortuitous discussion as it answers part of a question arising in a competition game this weekend, and I missed this reading the FAQ too quickly.

However, an additional question, can an interceptor also contact another enemy BG as part of its intercept?

- The interceptor entered the path of the charges. If it carried on a bit further it could also contact another enemy BG, and still intercept.

elysiumsolutions@fsmail.n · Mon Jan 31, 2011 11:06 am

The applicable statement on page 63 is that "An interception charge must be directly forward (except as below). It cannot include any shifts, changes of formation or interpenetration. It must either:

It then lists two possibilities.

1) It must cross the path of the charge. It specifically allows a wheel to avoid being hit in the flank.

2) It must contact the flank or rear in which case it is treated as a normal flank/rear charge. I and Lesley who was watching interpreted this treatment as a normal charge as happening post contact and therefore not allowing a wheel prior to contact. The conversion to a normal charge would allow a step forward (which didnt help in this case). Dave read it that the intercept charge became a normal charge immediately and as such he could wheel prior to contact.

I think it can be read either way and as such needs clarification.

Incidently the knights turned around and a unit of LH hit the cav in the side. However, the Kn gen was killed on a 12 which destroyed their chances of beating the cav before the kn were hit again in the back by another unit of cav. Dave won a fun battle.

Paul

petedalby · Post by **petedalby** » Mon Jan 31, 2011 11:27 am

However, an additional question, can an interceptor also contact another enemy BG as part of its intercept?

I think the rules are silent on this.

I don't think they can - but I can't find anything in the rules or the FAQs to support my view

And FWIW I agree with Phil - interceptors can't wheel other than to avoid being hit in the flank.

Petefloro · Post by **Petefloro** » Mon Jan 31, 2011 12:21 pm

Which is where we have differences in understanding. If it is now a charge perahps it can now be also intercepted. And we go round in cricles. As I said the FAQ doesn't help greatly. And I also said that is how I read it.

But an intercepting BG cannot it self be intercepted - P64.Yes I know it's not an intercepting BG now, but the rules say it is treated like a normal charge

Also don't all voluntary charges( including intercepts) have to be declared in the "Declaration of charges" part of the Impact Phase sequence? Which would mean a charge on the BG that is rear/flank charging wouldn't be right any way.

When we had a similar situation we moved the BG that had it's interception treated as a normal charge in the "move charges" part of the Impact Phase rather than the "move interceptors" bit. I think a step forward was involved but not a wheel as it didn't need one.

don't want to dwell on this for too long

yeah! yeah!