Scale and Basing

[Redpossum]

I'm a little confused here.

Can someone explain, as to a non-miniatures-gamer, what this issue is all about, please?

[dougm]

Hi Possum,

basically in an element type game, to avoid strange geometry - overlaps etc, there is a requirement that one group of troops line up directly vs opponents. This makes combat calculations easier, allows players to see who outnumbers who etc. Think of it as an enforced hexagin system such that each elements frontage represents one hexagon width.

regards

Doug M.

[Guest]

Most game systems using figures operate with bodies of men based in multiples on rectangles of a standard size. The reasons vary from set to set, but are a variation on a body of men occupying a set size. If a set of rules demands you use a fixed base size (say 4 firues on a 40mmx40mm stand) and all yor models are based to another scale (3 figures on a 60mm x 20mm stand) it means a lot of cr*p rebasing everything to match, or adapting the rules for private play in such a way as you can't always use you models against different opponents.

Kinda like Software that would run on your computer, but only play network games if you replaced your OS with an obscure Brazilian open source package.

(AKI)

[tahurwaili]

Warmaster stands are 20X40mm (except round command stands which are between 20 and 30mm across). The longer edge is the front for infantry and the smaller one for cavalry.

Warhammer army battle is not a stand game, so the size is given for individuals and you base as much as you find convenient together. Infantry 15-20mm wide, light infantry and cavalry 20-25mm wide.

The frontages you give for DBM are correct. I have known players using their WMA armies also for DBA by grouping two stands on a 40mmX40mm base (and using what would have been the base depth when needed), which is also the size for Fantasy Rules! games, and its unoffocial historical variants.

Warmaster stands for shock cavalry are 40 (depth)x20mm (front)

[gwindel]

There is still the possibility to go your own way. Vis Bellica has adopted its own base sizes and seems to be quite succesful.
In most elements based games, only the front size is crucial and only because every element must have the same. So rebasing for elements games is generally not so important than with units based games.

[Redpossum]

What's an element?

[dougm]

In DBx (the DBM family) of games, an element is a single group of figures, normally between 1-4 based on a standard sized base. Elements are moved either singly or as part of larger groups.

The element is used for combat calculation etc. In Boardgaming terms it is a 'piece'. The element represents anything from 128-256 (approx) men.

Samples are in 15mm, DBM, an element of Roman Legionaries would be 4 figures on a base 40mm wide (frontage) and 15mm deep. This is supposed to represent the approximate area these men would take up at that ground scale, plus some fatcor for a ranged component (Pilum) of their fighting effect. Light infantry such as skirmishing slingers are mounted 2 to a base, and are on a base 40mm wide (frontage) and 20mm deep.

regards

Doug

[duncan]

In DBx (the DBM family) of games, an element is a single group of figures, normally between 1-4 based on a standard sized base. Elements are moved either singly or as part of larger groups.

The element is used for combat calculation etc. In Boardgaming terms it is a 'piece'. The element represents anything from 128-256 (approx) men.

Samples are in 15mm, DBM, an element of Roman Legionaries would be 4 figures on a base 40mm wide (frontage) and 15mm deep. This is supposed to represent the approximate area these men would take up at that ground scale, plus some fatcor for a ranged component (Pilum) of their fighting effect. Light infantry such as skirmishing slingers are mounted 2 to a base, and are on a base 40mm wide (frontage) and 20mm deep.

regards

Doug

So, each of these element is indivisible in game terms, isn't it? You cannot kill one of those figures (4 figures in the 15 mm example) on the base...each element retreats or die as a whole...

[nikgaukroger]

Correct. However, looking at the initial blurb on AoW there will be whole element removal as a mechanism to reduce the effectiveness of units over time.

[bryan]

I'm still wondering about basing for AoW. This thread does not give a definitive answer. We all want to play with our old elements, but if AoW is a big sucess, as I'm sure the designers are planning, then it will be the standard for basing within a few years. With that in mind, I encourage the use of alternate basing within the rules. I agree frontage should be 40mm for 15mm games but why not simplify the depth to 20mm for all foot and 40mm for all mounted(and elephants and chariots). Also alllow 15mm and 30mm depth bases to be used but make the recoil depths(is there recoiling?) uniform regardless of depth of base. So new players would base to 20mm and 40mm depth but old armies could still be used and in time most armies might end up with the simpler 20 and 40mm depths.
I think 2 bases sizes simplifies some of the geometric problems of an element based game. I have tried it with DBA and liked the effect.

Also 20mm and 40mm depth is easier to base 1/72 scale plastics on if this is anything you care to facilitate.

[lentulus]

We all want to play with our old elements

How much does base depth matter in AoW? I play mostly Italian Wars, so my 15mm Pike are based for DBR - 20mm depth instead of the DBM 15. I would really be happy if that difference didn't matter very much.

[markm]

As someone mentioned above WAB basing (per the rules) is 15-20mm for foot and 20-25 for mounted. In reality it is 20mm and 25mm respectively.

So if you allow for 3 infantry per base that's a perfect fit, and 2 cavalry with a 10mm spacer should also do the job nicely. With any of my newer models it would be nigh on impossible to fit more than these on 60mm wide bases.

At least with the larger size of 25/28mm's you'll be able to tell what they are without squinting

[bolderdash]

Gents;

I have used a system for my 25mm figures that have 3 figures on a 60mm frontage (20mm frontage per figure). This is reduced from the reccomended 4 per base. Will this be an issue (wouldn't think so, but just want to double check). I play Armati (and have played DBx), with no issues. And, this allows me to play the occasional WAB game with no ill effect on figure to figure matchups.

Dave
http://www.miniwars.com

[lawrenceg]

I'm still wondering about basing for AoW. This thread does not give a definitive answer. We all want to play with our old elements, but if AoW is a big sucess, as I'm sure the designers are planning, then it will be the standard for basing within a few years. With that in mind, I encourage the use of alternate basing within the rules. I agree frontage should be 40mm for 15mm games but why not simplify the depth to 20mm for all foot and 40mm for all mounted(and elephants and chariots). Also alllow 15mm and 30mm depth bases to be used but make the recoil depths(is there recoiling?) uniform regardless of depth of base. So new players would base to 20mm and 40mm depth but old armies could still be used and in time most armies might end up with the simpler 20 and 40mm depths.

There is no recoiling in AoW. In fact, base depth has no effect on the game except for one rule and I'm hoping they'll change that to make it independent of base depth and hence remove the need to strictly specify base depths. Base depth does have another function in that it makes it easy to tell whether foot is "Heavy" or "Medium". There would be scope for confusion for some troop types that can be either (e.g. Later Roman Auxilia). However, confusion has not been a problem in DBM where some troops can be cavalry/knights or spears/warband, so I don't think this would turn out to be a problem in AoW.

Come to think of it, base depth also has an influence on terrain effects (e.g. if leaving the terrain, a 30 mm base needs to move 30 mm before it is clear) so there probably needs to be some constraint, but I think a range of 15-20 for foot (up to 30 or 40 for "Mob" = DBM "Horde") and 30-45 for mounted would be acceptable. Otherwise people will try to minimise the depth of mounted troops and use enormous depth for troops that like to be in bad terrain.

[camlan]

Gents;

I have used a system for my 25mm figures that have 3 figures on a 60mm frontage (20mm frontage per figure). This is reduced from the reccomended 4 per base. Will this be an issue (wouldn't think so, but just want to double check). I play Armati (and have played DBx), with no issues. And, this allows me to play the occasional WAB game with no ill effect on figure to figure matchups.

Dave
http://www.miniwars.com

Thought I would revisit this. How many figures per base for protected infantry...3 or 4? Armored infantry? What's the difference between protected and armored?
Thanks.

[lawrenceg]

Thought I would revisit this. How many figures per base for protected infantry...3 or 4? Armored infantry? What's the difference between protected and armored?
Thanks.

Armour does not affect number of figures on a base. It could be 3 or 4.

[hammy]

Thought I would revisit this. How many figures per base for protected infantry...3 or 4? Armored infantry? What's the difference between protected and armored?
Thanks.

Armour does not affect number of figures on a base. It could be 3 or 4.

Infantry come in three basic flavours:

Heavy foot (4 to a base, 40mm by 15mm in 15mm scale, 60mm by 20mm in 25mm scale) *
Medium foot (3 or 4 to a base, 40mm by 20mm in 15mm scale, 60mm by 30mm in 25mm scale)
Light foot (2 to a base, 40mm by 20mm in 15mm scale, 60mm by 30mm in 25mm scale)

Troops are also classified by the level of protection:

Heavily armoured
Armoured
Protected
Unprotected

There is no direct link between protection and basing although there are few if any protected light foot and no armoured or heavily armoured light foot to my knowledge.

I hope that helps

Hammy

* The WAB players at my club run heavy foot 3 to a 60mm base as that fits the WAB basing exactly.

[bolderdash]

Thought I would revisit this. How many figures per base for protected infantry...3 or 4? Armored infantry? What's the difference between protected and armored?
Thanks.

Armour does not affect number of figures on a base. It could be 3 or 4.

Infantry come in three basic flavours:

Heavy foot (4 to a base, 40mm by 15mm in 15mm scale, 60mm by 20mm in 25mm scale) *
Medium foot (3 or 4 to a base, 40mm by 20mm in 15mm scale, 60mm by 30mm in 25mm scale)
Light foot (2 to a base, 40mm by 20mm in 15mm scale, 60mm by 30mm in 25mm scale)

Troops are also classified by the level of protection:

Heavily armoured
Armoured
Protected
Unprotected

There is no direct link between protection and basing although there are few if any protected light foot and no armoured or heavily armoured light foot to my knowledge.

I hope that helps

Hammy

* The WAB players at my club run heavy foot 3 to a 60mm base as that fits the WAB basing exactly.

Thanks Hammy. Exactly what I was looking for.

Dave

[ars_belli]

In fact, base depth has no effect on the game except for one rule and I'm hoping they'll change that to make it independent of base depth and hence remove the need to strictly specify base depths.

I hope that will indeed be the case. My 15mm armies are based to uniform depths of 30mm for infantry and 40mm for cavalry in order to accommodate the poses of the figures, and it would be nice to be able to use them with the new rules!

cheers,
Scott

[youngr]

I would like the rules to include basing for 1/72 plastic figures too. Seeing as these are only now getting popular the rules may have some flexibility to how they could be based compared to 15mm/25mm metal figures.

Cheers

Richard