Flank Charging Pike

Fluffy · Post by **Fluffy** » Mon Jan 10, 2011 1:40 am

I feel silly for asking, but I got into the flank of a friend's pike with some cataphracts and we where not sure what happens.

If I contact 4 deep 2 wide pike with 2 wide cats in the flank and 2 wide lancers in the front.

How many pike turn and do they face both cats giving 4 dice or 1 giving only 2?
Do the pike still count as being in 4 ranks?

fatismo · Post by **fatismo** » Mon Jan 10, 2011 3:14 am

my understanding is that those bases contaced have to turn, so if the Cats hit 2 pike those bases turn. This will leave 2 facing the lancers (on flank charge side) and 4 facing them on other side. As for dice, on impact the turned pike get 2 dice per stand and the front pike get 2 dice per stand, total of 8 dice then lose 1 per 3 for being disrupted so down to 6 dice, dice are allocated as pike player wants but each base has to have at least 1 dice.

I would think pike player would put 2 dice against Cats and 4 dice againt lancers as his vs lancer factors are better, though not that much better as they are disrupted and one side is only 2 ranks deep

BillMc · Post by **BillMc** » Mon Jan 10, 2011 3:15 am

Is this a trick question?

They all turn to the rear when routing...)

hazelbark · Post by **hazelbark** » Mon Jan 10, 2011 3:29 am

Its not silly. until you get into the habit of the turning it can cost some brain cells.

Its page 56 last bullet for the base being pulled.

So the flank contact knocks the Pike down to disrupted.

Then the question is which moved first the unit hitting the front or the flank? That is p 56.

Assuming it is mounted impact to choose.
The Cats can move first into the flank. The have hit 4 bases, which use the rules for turning. 60mm deep therefore 2 bases (80mm) wide. So the 4 bases turn. 2 wide 2 deep facing the Cats. Meanwhile the other file of 4 bases stays facing forward.

The Lancers hit the front and face 1 base and 4 deep.
So the Pike have 3 bases (6 dice, disr to 4) 2 bases to flank. 1 to front. Cats have 2 bases. Lancers have 1 base.
The Cats are ++ and the diec against them are --
The lancer is -. The PIke get ++ but because disr the lancers get a POA net - to lancer and + to that file of Pike.
Odds are Pike do 1-2 hits and receive 3-5 hits. The pike then probably drop with a -3 or -4 CT and if not will die in melee.

Note if Lnacers move first then p 56 effects things differently with only one base of Cats fighting.

Fluffy · Post by **Fluffy** » Mon Jan 10, 2011 5:44 pm

The main point that I can't find in the rules is which bases count as being "in contact".

Assuming that all bases that contribute dice or POA's are in "in contact" all 4 pike will be "in contact" to who ever charged first so only one base will turn to the second charger, giving 1 combat to the second charger.
The pike only count bases that are facing the same way for POA's.

Is that right?

lawrenceg · Post by **lawrenceg** » Mon Jan 10, 2011 5:52 pm

Fluffy wrote:The main point that I can't find in the rules is which bases count as being "in contact".

Assuming that all bases that contribute dice or POA's are in "in contact" all 4 pike will be "in contact" to who ever charged first so only one base will turn to the second charger, giving 1 combat to the second charger.
The pike only count bases that are facing the same way for POA's.

Is that right?

Bases count as being "in contact" if they are in contact. I expect the authors thought this so obvious that they didn't bother to put a rule in to that effect.

Fluffy · Post by **Fluffy** » Mon Jan 10, 2011 8:03 pm

lawrenceg wrote:Bases count as being "in contact" if they are in contact. I expect the authors thought this so obvious that they didn't bother to put a rule in to that effect.

If only bases that physically touch enemy bases are in contact 3 bases of pike will face the flank charge, regardless of who charges first?
Also why then is page 56 in plural if only one base can be contacted from the front?

fatismo · Post by **fatismo** » Mon Jan 10, 2011 8:27 pm

It is my understanding that only bases that will fight in the impact are counted as in contact, therefore the Cats (2 wide) hit in the side, although they might touch more then 2 bases they declare which 2 bases they are contacting (rolling dice against) and those 2 bases turn to face

hazelbark · Post by **hazelbark** » Mon Jan 10, 2011 8:37 pm

Fluffy wrote:The main point that I can't find in the rules is which bases count as being "in contact".

Assuming that all bases that contribute dice or POA's are in "in contact" all 4 pike will be "in contact" to who ever charged first so only one base will turn to the second charger, giving 1 combat to the second charger.
The pike only count bases that are facing the same way for POA's.

Is that right?

Now I don't have rules in front. There is a section at the beginning of the impact section that saays something about contacting with your front edge or witha front corner and has about 3 citcumstances. That is where the "contact" for imapct is defined.

Note then in the combat section later it explains how to calculate the # of bases that are in contact fro determining dice.

fatismo · Post by **fatismo** » Mon Jan 10, 2011 8:45 pm

yes will have to re-read this. Know you cant have different number of bases on each side fighting in Impact but how cant remember how which bases fight is determined

hazelbark · Post by **hazelbark** » Mon Jan 10, 2011 9:14 pm

fatismo wrote:yes will have to re-read this. Know you cant have different number of bases on each side fighting in Impact but how cant remember how which bases fight is determined

Same section answers this.

zoltan · Post by **zoltan** » Tue Jan 11, 2011 8:10 pm

Exhibit A.
1.

2.

3.

zoltan · Post by **zoltan** » Tue Jan 11, 2011 8:12 pm

Exhibit B.
1.

2.

3.

hazelbark · Post by **hazelbark** » Tue Jan 11, 2011 8:49 pm

Your first exhibit should be reviewed in light of page 56.

philqw78 · Post by **philqw78** » Tue Jan 11, 2011 10:04 pm

IMO neither A or B are correct. In A 1st and 4th bases are contacted. These are the ones that turn putting a 3 rank deep and a 1 rank deep pike file v's the cav. In B the first rank cannot turn as it is already in melee. The 4th rank can and must do so immediately. Giving three facing as they were and one facing to flank. Either way the pike is dead and I could be wrong as I would need to read the rules. Something I do differently to other people.

Fluffy · Post by **Fluffy** » Tue Jan 11, 2011 10:55 pm

Thank you, the pictures are really helpful.

IMO neither A or B are correct. In A 1st and 4th bases are contacted. These are the ones that turn putting a 3 rank deep and a 1 rank deep pike file v's the cav. In B the first rank cannot turn as it is already in melee. The 4th rank can and must do so immediately. Giving three facing as they were and one facing to flank. Either way the pike is dead and I could be wrong as I would need to read the rules. Something I do differently to other people.

Would they be correct if the flank chargers contacted with their front edges instead of corners?

deadtorius · Post by **deadtorius** » Tue Jan 11, 2011 11:36 pm

According to the infamous page 56 only bases actually contacted by a flank charge are turned to face the flank charge. So I guess Phil has a point that in case B only the rear base would turn to face. Probably should have pulled a quick wheel and hit them head on in the flank.
If the charge was head on and the flank was contacted by the full front of the flank chargers then one would suppose that the all the bases with the exception of the front base (they are already in melee) would turn to flank. Either way its dead pike time as they drop cohesion and lose their pike POA's since they either lose the 4th rank POA or will not be at least 3 bases deep for melee in one of the two directions they are now fighting.

zoltan · Post by **zoltan** » Tue Jan 11, 2011 11:45 pm

hazelbark wrote:Your first exhibit should be reviewed in light of page 56.

What are you saying? That in Exhibit A picture 1 the front rank base of the file in overlap position is considered to be "in contact" and accordingly can't turn 90 degrees when hit by a flank charge?

zoltan · Post by **zoltan** » Tue Jan 11, 2011 11:51 pm

deadtorius wrote:According to the infamous page 56 only bases actually contacted by a flank charge are turned to face the flank charge.

OK, so photo B3 is wrong - I turned bases 2 and 3 incorrectly.

Base 1 was contacted but does not turn because it is already fighting to its front.
Bases 2 and 3 do not turn because they were not contacted.
Base 4 turns because it was contacted.

zoltan · Post by **zoltan** » Tue Jan 11, 2011 11:58 pm

philqw78 wrote: In A 1st and 4th bases are contacted. These are the ones that turn putting a 3 rank deep and a 1 rank deep pike file v's the cav.

Well if the strict rule is that only those bases actually contacted turn I can understand that bases 1 and 4 turn 90 degrees to face the cav. But what happens to bases 2 and 3 that were not contacted? Which rule dictates:
1. that they turn
2. they both fall in behind either base 1 or base 4 (creating one file 3 deep and one file 1 deep as you suggest)
3. one falls in behind base 1 and one behind base 4 (making a 2 wide and 2 deep line)