Late Republican Romans and Gauls

ars_belli · Post by **ars_belli** » Mon Feb 12, 2007 10:30 pm

Okay... after lurking for several months, I have been sufficiently intrigued to sign up for the forum. My favorite armies are the Gauls and Late Republican Romans, and I have not much cared for the way either have appeared in DBx. There have been a few tantalizing hints posted in this forum, but (without divulging any trade secrets, of course

), can anyone provide a few more ideas on how AoW handles the legions of Marius, Pompey and Caesar?

Many thanks,
Scott K.

plewis66 · Post by **plewis66** » Tue Feb 13, 2007 8:31 am

In short: very well!
I've fielded a late republican army a couple of times, and the first thing that struck me is how much the army looked like the right size and composition, unlike in the few games DBM I played where I had to continually reduce the number of legionaries used, because auxilia were better! A friend of mine who plays warhammer who had seen my DBM Romans, on seeing the AoW army composition commented 'They look scary'. I think that reflects both the composition of the army, and the way it is organised in AoW.

Late Republic legionaries are truly hard in this game, and there are not many enemies who will not be somewhat perturbed by their presence on the battlefield. Late republicans are allowed Elite legionaries, who are Armoured and Skilled Swordsmen. This means that they have a good chance of only needing 3's to hit traditional enemies (unarmoured sword/spear), and quite a few ahistoric enemies too - whilst the enemy will be needing fives. Couple that with the fact they are allowed to re-roll ones or twos, and they become quite fearsome indeed.

shall · Post by **shall** » Tue Feb 13, 2007 9:01 am

And thus they make a great opponent for a mass of celts....one of my faves is the Ancient Britons which I have used a fair bit in testing.

This again tends to have the right feel.

1. swarms of skirmsihers attempting to whittle down the Romans to DISR to give theem a fighting chance. Failing in most places but with the odd wobble in a Roman line top pick on if you can manage it (not easy).

2/ Lots of warriors with a ferocious charge that can almost match the Romans at intial crunch. But then my bolt is shot. If I don't bust the Romans in the charge their superior skill will get me the end. Celtic numbers, generals and rear support all help a a lot so you have to get the depth right.

3. Legionaries are very difficult to take down unless you can force then to be peeled off an hit them with numbers. I managed it a few times by getting 2 BGs onto 1 and blocking romans support. Nver fight them in an even scrap unless you are willing to lose...you bprobably will. Auxilia a much more viable target in general. (no more legions without legionaries!)

4. Its hard to control the britons so you need a very good plan and deployment or they will have you.

5. Chariots and cavarly provide some flexibility to fill holesor pullt he romans around

6. Nothing is ever certain in AOW - the best the romans will get is 6 dice needing 3s with re-rolls and the opponents needs 5s on 6 dice. You can still lose such a fight - although its not easy! So the odd Roman disaster happens every few games - but can usualy be shored up by good generalhsip. This adds to the fun.

A very rough game on an open table for the celts - 80/20 in favour of the repoblicans above. However we did roll the Early Imperials over 32-0 witht he Ancient Britons a few months ago. Much better with some nice terrain around - woods for the odd ambush is great.

Gauls about the same with less skirmishers and more cavalry I guess

Si

ars_belli · Post by **ars_belli** » Tue Feb 13, 2007 12:20 pm

Thanks, guys. This sounds very promising indeed... just what the doctor ordered, in fact!

From other posts I have read, it appears that the AoW rules will encourage player-generals to form their units (BGs) into cohesive battle lines that simulate historical deployments, e.g. Roman and Gallic armies with melee infantry in the center, cavalry on the flanks, etc. IMHO, this is a very positive development. Does AoW go a step further, and include rules encouraging the Romans to form their heavy infantry into historical legions? If so, and given the nominal gaming scale of 1 element = roughly 250 men, would a Late Republican (Marian) legion then consist of 20-21 elements? Just trying to see how my exisiting armies would possibly fit into this system.

Cheers,
Scott K.

sagji · Post by **sagji** » Tue Feb 13, 2007 12:30 pm

ars_belli wrote:Thanks, guys. This sounds very promising indeed... just what the doctor ordered, in fact!

From other posts I have read, it appears that the AoW rules will encourage player-generals to form their units (BGs) into cohesive battle lines that simulate historical deployments, e.g. Roman and Gallic armies with melee infantry in the center, cavalry on the flanks, etc. IMHO, this is a very positive development. Does AoW go a step further, and include rules encouraging the Romans to form their heavy infantry into historical legions? If so, and given the nominal gaming scale of 1 element = roughly 250 men, would a Late Republican (Marian) legion then consist of 20-21 elements? Just trying to see how my exisiting armies would possibly fit into this system.

Cheers,
Scott K.

Last time I used the Late Republicians I had 15 BGs with an average of 4.4 bases per BG

terrys · Post by **terrys** » Tue Feb 13, 2007 12:44 pm

given the nominal gaming scale of 1 element = roughly 250 men, would a Late Republican (Marian) legion then consist of 20-21 elements? Just trying to see how my exisiting armies would possibly fit into this system.

At the current 14 points each, you 20 'elements' would cost 280 points, and would form up in 4 or 5 BG's
(a BG representing 2-3 cohorts)
I'd certainly recommend using this as a minimum for your army. I can only field a single Legion in my 800pt army at the moment, but would prefer to field 2 if I had the figures.

whitehorses · Post by **whitehorses** » Tue Feb 13, 2007 7:13 pm

plewis66 wrote:In short: very well!
I've fielded a late republican army a couple of times, and the first thing that struck me is how much the army looked like the right size and composition, unlike in the few games DBM I played where I had to continually reduce the number of legionaries used, because auxilia were better! A friend of mine who plays warhammer who had seen my DBM Romans, on seeing the AoW army composition commented 'They look scary'. I think that reflects both the composition of the army, and the way it is organised in AoW.

Late Republic legionaries are truly hard in this game, and there are not many enemies who will not be somewhat perturbed by their presence on the battlefield. Late republicans are allowed Elite legionaries, who are Armoured and Skilled Swordsmen. This means that they have a good chance of only needing 3's to hit traditional enemies (unarmoured sword/spear), and quite a few ahistoric enemies too - whilst the enemy will be needing fives. Couple that with the fact they are allowed to re-roll ones or twos, and they become quite fearsome indeed.

Wow! Who would have thought Romans were the big cheese in AoW?!
How do Early & Middle Imperial Romans measure up? Are Lanciarii as good as ordinary Legionaries, & who gets the better quality Auxilia?

nikgaukroger · Post by **nikgaukroger** » Tue Feb 13, 2007 8:18 pm

whitehorses wrote:
Wow! Who would have thought Romans were the big cheese in AoW?!
How do Early & Middle Imperial Romans measure up? Are Lanciarii as good as ordinary Legionaries, & who gets the better quality Auxilia?

Romans are not unbeatable though

Early and Middle Romans are covered by a single list - Principate Roman. The Lanciarii mainly differ in being Light Spear rather than Impact foot which makes them a bit better all round but a bit less effective against other infantry than the other legionarii. Auxilia can be the same quality over the whole list although there is a less armoured option for the later part of the list for both legionarii and auxilia for those who believe in it.

ars_belli · Post by **ars_belli** » Wed Feb 14, 2007 3:28 pm

terrys wrote:At the current 14 points each, you 20 'elements' would cost 280 points, and would form up in 4 or 5 BG's
(a BG representing 2-3 cohorts)
I'd certainly recommend using this as a minimum for your army. I can only field a single Legion in my 800pt army at the moment, but would prefer to field 2 if I had the figures.

So if I currently own a total of 48 stands/bases of Late Republican Roman legionaries, I would field them in AoW as 8-12 BGs, each consisting of 4-6 stands? And is it possible to ask what are the ranges for the numbers of stands per BG and total stands for legionaries in the AoW Later Republican Roman army list?

Many thanks,
Scott K.

ars_belli · Post by **ars_belli** » Wed Feb 14, 2007 3:47 pm

ars_belli wrote:So if I currently own a total of 48 stands/bases of Late Republican Roman legionaries, I would field them in AoW as 8-12 BGs, each consisting of 4-6 stands? And is it possible to ask what are the ranges for the numbers of stands per BG and total stands for legionaries in the AoW Later Republican Roman army list?

And as long as I am prying

, can someone provide an idea of the army list ranges for Gallic warbands in AoW? Are Gallic warriors based at 3 or 4 figures per stand?

Many thanks,
Scott K.

hammy · Post by **hammy** » Wed Feb 14, 2007 3:48 pm

ars_belli wrote:
terrys wrote:At the current 14 points each, you 20 'elements' would cost 280 points, and would form up in 4 or 5 BG's
(a BG representing 2-3 cohorts)
I'd certainly recommend using this as a minimum for your army. I can only field a single Legion in my 800pt army at the moment, but would prefer to field 2 if I had the figures.
So if I currently own a total of 48 stands/bases of Late Republican Roman legionaries, I would field them in AoW as 8-12 BGs, each consisting of 4-6 stands? And is it possible to ask what are the ranges for the numbers of stands per BG and total stands for legionaries in the AoW Later Republican Roman army list?

Many thanks,
Scott K.

The late republican list at present allows for up to 40 bases of legionaries in BG's of 4-8 bases. If you took all 40 bases without upgrading any to Elite (Ceasars veterans etc.) then you would have spent most but not all of the points available. You would however have a very tough infantry force.

ars_belli · Post by **ars_belli** » Wed Feb 14, 2007 4:07 pm

hammy wrote:The late republican list at present allows for up to 40 bases of legionaries in BG's of 4-8 bases. If you took all 40 bases without upgrading any to Elite (Ceasars veterans etc.) then you would have spent most but not all of the points available. You would however have a very tough infantry force.

Many thanks, hammy. So it sounds like I could possibly use AoW to fight large historical battles from Caesar's Gallic Wars, simply by considering each BG of legionaries to represent an entire Caesarian legion, rather than 2-3 cohorts. Granted that the missile ranges would probably be a bit 'off,' would that otherwise be compatible with the rules as currently written?

Many thanks,
Scott K.

hammy · Post by **hammy** » Wed Feb 14, 2007 4:21 pm

ars_belli wrote:
hammy wrote:The late republican list at present allows for up to 40 bases of legionaries in BG's of 4-8 bases. If you took all 40 bases without upgrading any to Elite (Ceasars veterans etc.) then you would have spent most but not all of the points available. You would however have a very tough infantry force.
Many thanks, hammy. So it sounds like I could possibly use AoW to fight large historical battles from Caesar's Gallic Wars, simply by considering each BG of legionaries to represent an entire Caesarian legion, rather than 2-3 cohorts. Granted that the missile ranges would probably be a bit 'off,' would that otherwise be compatible with the rules as currently written?

Many thanks,
Scott K.

Yes, you could very easily consider a BG to be a legion and the rules would work just fine.

Ceasars veterans are VERY hard BTW.

ars_belli · Post by **ars_belli** » Wed Feb 14, 2007 4:49 pm

hammy wrote:Yes, you could very easily consider a BG to be a legion and the rules would work just fine.

Excellent! I'll be looking forward to the commercial release of AoW (hopefully sporting a more imaginative title) with great anticipation.

hammy wrote:Ceasars veterans are VERY hard BTW.

Sounds pretty historical to me!

Thanks again,
Scott K.

ars_belli · Post by **ars_belli** » Sun Feb 18, 2007 3:18 pm

Just to follow up on one of my earlier questions: in the Gallic army list for AoW, are 'warbands' based with three or four figures per stand? Hopefully one or the other, and not 'it depends' as in some rule sets!

Cheers,
Scott K.

shall · Post by **shall** » Sun Feb 18, 2007 5:13 pm

3 or 4 IIRC. Not yet finalised.

Bgs of 8-12 usually.

Si

rbodleyscott · Post by **rbodleyscott** » Sun Feb 18, 2007 6:02 pm

ars_belli wrote:Just to follow up on one of my earlier questions: in the Gallic army list for AoW, are 'warbands' based with three or four figures per stand? Hopefully one or the other, and not 'it depends' as in some rule sets!

At the moment it is 4 if they are Heavy Foot, and a (free) choice of 3 or 4 if Medium Foot.

Mostly Gallic warbands would be Heavy Foot (Protected, Impact Foot, Swordsmen) as they usually fought in close order. Only Gallic hill tribes and Ancient Britons would qualify as Medium Foot.

ars_belli · Post by **ars_belli** » Sun Feb 18, 2007 7:36 pm

4 figs per stand and BGs of 8-12 stands sounds great for my 1st century B.C. Gallic army. Many thanks, guys!