Mixed Bow units & Bow* and where's my manual?

[dazzam]

I'm really unsure about how mixed units (units with one kind of weapon & a bow). I've seen a thread that outlines how it works for defensive spears with bows but not for anything else. In the Turk armies for example the Dailami have 2 options one is with (Bow) and one without and they cost the same points. Can someone please explain the differences in shooting, impact, and melee combat for these.

Also I note from that thread that there are some with LF supporting Bowman and some MF supporting bowman. However you don't seem to be able to tell the dif from the army lists. That thread attempted to explain it in TT terms however I've never played the TT game and am unlikely to so it would be great if I could get an explanation in PC game terms.

Is there a difference between (bow) and Bow* troops? How many shots do they get and what is the range?

I really enjoy FOG but just am very disappointed with the documentation. They done a good job in getting out the various version but really think before they go ahead and release new versions a definitive manual is required. This forum is a good stopgap but considering the dosh I've spent now on the various versions I think I'm due a manual from Slitherine.

[babyshark]

I really enjoy FOG but just am very disappointed with the documentation. They done a good job in getting out the various version but really think before they go ahead and release new versions a definitive manual is require. This forum is a good stopgap but considering the dosh I've spent now on the various versions I think I'm due a manual from Slitherine.

The manual for the digital game is surprisingly crap, considering that they did a pretty good job (IMHO) with the TT game.

Marc

[TheGrayMouser]

Good questians Dazzam, here is what I have deduced from the manual and by using the scenario editor to test things:

in general mediums and cavalry get 3 dice , lights 2 dice
bows are not the same as bows* or (bows)

bows (or crossbows longbows etc) used by cavalry or mediums 3 dice
bows* used by cavalry or mediums get 2 dice

(bows) or ( crossbows) indicate the BG is a MIXED unit and the bow capacity will either be light or medium.... the only way to tell in the DAG purchase screen what it is is by the # of grapchics in the rear rank ie 2 its light , 3 medium...

Keith posted the capabilities of mixed units missle:

Normal Shooting
LF rear rank 1 attack
MF rear rank 2 attacks

Support shooting when being charged
MF rear rank 2 attacks
LF rear rank 2 attacks when being charged by mounted otherwise zero

**********
now Dailamies are a tough one because they are medium impact troops that have mixed missle support...... As you pointed out the cost is the same w ith or without the supporting bows ( which are light foot fyi)
By extrapolating how defensine heavies with light foot support dont suffer any melee/impct penalties i guess you could argue neither do they but then why do they cost the same??

[dazzam]

Thanks TGM

That clarifies the shooting. I did some testing as well and (Bow) seem to have the full 5 hex range

I did some more testing and picked a few different mixed troops. I had some spearmen mixed with bow (LF as they had 2 bowmen at the back) and they have 1 shot as you suggest (as do the Dailami's as they are mixed MF) However there are some units from SOA & S&S that look like they have LF supporting Crossbows (ie 2 figures at the back) who in fact have 2 dice when they fire their arrows. Is this a bug? or are they misrepresented as LF when they shud be MF support? or is this peculiar to crossbows and an intentional design?

You've hit the nail on the head re the Dailamis in combat..if there is no dif in combat and they cost the same why would you pick those without bows?

[keithmartinsmith]

We will be reviewing the points costs when we release Legions Triumphant.

Could be

we need to add a point for LF if not supporting spears. Keith

[dazzam]

OK so to confirm there is no combat penalty for the non spear infantry with (bows). Also did you see my question re the mixed units with spears and what look like LF Crossbow..these seem to have 2 dice in normal missle combat

[batesmotel]

We will be reviewing the points costs when we release Legions Triumphant.

Could be

we need to add a point for LF if not supporting spears. Keith

So how much will you add for LF supporting spears? I'm not clear why this is different for them since they are clearly better than MF supporting spears since the spears get to keep the second rank bonus.

Chris

[zumHeuriger]

Are Defensive Spear supposed to lose their +1 impact POA for being charged when in mixed units? It looks like they negate the lance bonus, but unlike regular DefSp units they don't get the +1 for holding steady?

Cheers

[TheGrayMouser]

Are Defensive Spear supposed to lose their +1 impact POA for being charged when in mixed units? It looks like they negate the lance bonus, but unlike regular DefSp units they don't get the +1 for holding steady?

Cheers

That is correct Zum, but only for Mixed spears with MEDIUM support, if they have light foot support they act like normal spears (of course with the added bonus of shooting , although poorly, and the ability to give an xtra 2 dice at imapct vs cavalry charges because of the light foot support)

The way I envision it is a spear unit with light foot is a block of spears with some additional men armed with bows or whatever,, either posted in the rear or within the formation.

I envision spears with medium support being a single rank (maybe 2 ) of spears backed by several ranks of bows... The spears in such a unit are really only there to provide cover for the missle troops (kinda like a paviser spear frormation in Med Italy)

[gudin]

Are Defensive Spear supposed to lose their +1 impact POA for being charged when in mixed units? It looks like they negate the lance bonus, but unlike regular DefSp units they don't get the +1 for holding steady?

Cheers

That is correct Zum, but only for Mixed spears with MEDIUM support, if they have light foot support they act like normal spears (of course with the added bonus of shooting , although poorly, and the ability to give an xtra 2 dice at imapct vs cavalry charges because of the light foot support)

The way I envision it is a spear unit with light foot is a block of spears with some additional men armed with bows or whatever,, either posted in the rear or within the formation.

I envision spears with medium support being a single rank (maybe 2 ) of spears backed by several ranks of bows... The spears in such a unit are really only there to provide cover for the missle troops (kinda like a paviser spear frormation in Med Italy)

That's how it is in the tabletop game. Generally, MF bows in the second rank behind a single rank of spear, while LF bows in a third rank behind 2 ranks of some other foot. Note, Legions Triumphant should add Legions with optional third rank LF bows to help them vs. cavalry.

However, in the tabletop game, the second rank of MF bows should provide support shooters, and they don't appear to.

(e.g. Immortals charged by hoplites should get 2 extra attacks by support shooters, but they don't.)

[TheGrayMouser]

Are you sure they arnt getting the 2 support dice when charged? I do know there is a glitch in the verbiose display where those xtra dice rolls are not shown but Slitherine has said (somehwere buried) that it is just that , you cant see the dice but they are factored in)

My guess is Legions will just be the same as what we already have feature wise ie heavy units with LF Bow support will act the same as now (i think late legions will be heavy foot, light spear/sword with lf bow support).. although they appear to be reviewing the point costs.

[gudin]

Are you sure they arnt getting the 2 support dice when charged? I do know there is a glitch in the verbiose display where those xtra dice rolls are not shown but Slitherine has said (somehwere buried) that it is just that , you cant see the dice but they are factored in)

My guess is Legions will just be the same as what we already have feature wise ie heavy units with LF Bow support will act the same as now (i think late legions will be heavy foot, light spear/sword with lf bow support).. although they appear to be reviewing the point costs.

I was going by the display, so if that's not accurate, you may be correct.

As far as Legions are concerned, from Principate onwards, there is in the tabletop game the option to add a third rank of LF to the Legions. So they'd be like the Dailami (except HF and Skilled Swordsmen). Assuming the Dailami are not losing anything for adding the extra bows. I never was clear on that.

[TheGrayMouser]

Well dont quote me on the display thingie , i do know it has been mentioned before and also even regular medium bows dont display the xtra 2 dice rolls... Kinda hard to tell if something is working without the display feedback...

I think the differnce between support troops / no support troops is going to be a lot differnent between the PC and the TT both in a cross comparison and within each system. Without "bases" in the PC there is no way to get a direct translation.

For example in the TT late romans can buy legions in 4 or 6 or 8 (bases) but they have the option to take 1/3 of those bases as light foot and the remainder being the heavies) I believe 6 bases and 9 bases would be legal mixes.
The real diffence is that it saves ap's because a BG's cost is based on the bases , so a unit with 1/3 stands being cheaper (light foot is a lot cheaper than heavier) The offest is that , in the TT if a front rank base is destroyed you might end up having a lf base in the front rank which is not good... Slightly offsetiing this is the dubious missle capacity and the 1 dice support at impact..

The PC is a lot differnt and a heavy with supporting lf gains missle capacity, the support impact dice and (at least in the case of Dailamiies) costs the same a pure unit. I think Keith indiocated they will be reviewing the AP's such units have for Legions T. and likly will increase the cost of units w LF support .

[gudin]

Well dont quote me on the display thingie , i do know it has been mentioned before and also even regular medium bows dont display the xtra 2 dice rolls... Kinda hard to tell if something is working without the display feedback...

I think the differnce between support troops / no support troops is going to be a lot differnent between the PC and the TT both in a cross comparison and within each system. Without "bases" in the PC there is no way to get a direct translation.

For example in the TT late romans can buy legions in 4 or 6 or 8 (bases) but they have the option to take 1/3 of those bases as light foot and the remainder being the heavies) I believe 6 bases and 9 bases would be legal mixes.
The real diffence is that it saves ap's because a BG's cost is based on the bases , so a unit with 1/3 stands being cheaper (light foot is a lot cheaper than heavier) The offest is that , in the TT if a front rank base is destroyed you might end up having a lf base in the front rank which is not good... Slightly offsetiing this is the dubious missle capacity and the 1 dice support at impact..

The PC is a lot differnt and a heavy with supporting lf gains missle capacity, the support impact dice and (at least in the case of Dailamiies) costs the same a pure unit. I think Keith indiocated they will be reviewing the AP's such units have for Legions T. and likly will increase the cost of units w LF support .

Yep. I agree, that's the key. There is no concept of frontage that is really relevant in digital, whereas it is a big deal in TT. A 9 base mixed unit has a frontage of 3, whereas a 8 base non-mixed unit has a frontage of 4. In Swords and Scimitars (and Decline and Fall) You generally only get 1 BG of Dailami, so I basically never use them as mixed (I'd rather have the extra base of frontage than a borderline useless 3rd rank of LF bow), but in digital, you get the same number of BGs regardless, and (at least in the current version) they cost the same, so if they are as good in impact and in terms of losses they take, then there is no reason not to take bow.

Add to that the fact that they can actually shoot in digital other than in impact, where they can't in TT, it seems rather obvious that you should take them with bow.

[TheGrayMouser]

Well regardless of what works doesnt work , all this talk of legions has gotten me excited for the next expansion

[PorkSol]

Are you sure they arnt getting the 2 support dice when charged? I do know there is a glitch in the verbiose display where those xtra dice rolls are not shown but Slitherine has said (somehwere buried) that it is just that , you cant see the dice but they are factored in)

To make things more confusing... in the current patch but not in earlier ones, there is an unfortunate bug where medium foot archers, supporting medium foot archers and supporting light foot archers aren't getting any of the support shooting dice that they are supposed to get.

Hence if you fire up say Agincourt Scenario, Crossbowmen can charge Longbowmen and get even odds in impact instead of being down due to the support shooting from the Longbow.

The support shooting used to show up in both the odds predictor and the combat log.

[TheGrayMouser]

Are you sure they arnt getting the 2 support dice when charged? I do know there is a glitch in the verbiose display where those xtra dice rolls are not shown but Slitherine has said (somehwere buried) that it is just that , you cant see the dice but they are factored in)

To make things more confusing... in the current patch but not in earlier ones, there is an unfortunate bug where medium foot archers, supporting medium foot archers and supporting light foot archers aren't getting any of the support shooting dice that they are supposed to get.

Hence if you fire up say Agincourt Scenario, Crossbowmen can charge Longbowmen and get even odds in impact instead of being down due to the support shooting from the Longbow.

The support shooting used to show up in both the odds predictor and the combat log.

Oye wasnt aware of that! i dont use the combat log. Did you post this in the tech area so Hexwar can review cause that is a major bug!

[PorkSol]

viewtopic.php?t=20825

It looks like they're already aware of the problem for regular MF archers, but I'll mention that it seems to apply to mixed HF/MF archers and mixed HF/LF archers as well, just in case.

[dazzam]

Can someone from the game designers please answer my question re this

I did some more testing and picked a few different mixed troops. I had some spearmen mixed with bow (LF as they had 2 bowmen at the back) and they have 1 shot as you suggest (as do the Dailami's as they are mixed MF) However there are some units from SOA & S&S that look like they have LF supporting Crossbows (ie 2 figures at the back) who in fact have 2 dice when they fire their arrows. Is this a bug? or are they misrepresented as LF when they shud be MF support? or is this peculiar to crossbows and an intentional design?

When I pick troops I'd really like to be able to tell how many shots they will get rather than have to go and test each troop type.

[TheGrayMouser]

Can someone from the game designers please answer my question re this

I did some more testing and picked a few different mixed troops. I had some spearmen mixed with bow (LF as they had 2 bowmen at the back) and they have 1 shot as you suggest (as do the Dailami's as they are mixed MF) However there are some units from SOA & S&S that look like they have LF supporting Crossbows (ie 2 figures at the back) who in fact have 2 dice when they fire their arrows. Is this a bug? or are they misrepresented as LF when they shud be MF support? or is this peculiar to crossbows and an intentional design?

When I pick troops I'd really like to be able to tell how many shots they will get rather than have to go and test each troop type.

I think everything is currently mucked up right now regarding missles/support fire etc... Slitherine is offically closed until after the New Year though so might be a little while on any news /patches...