GS Terrain Movement Chart p56

[Blathergut]

What does it mean when, for example, under CLEAR terrain, FAIR, foot has a 1 but mech has 0? I thought this was showing movement costs per hex, but it seems to be showing something else. Extra costs?

[Blathergut]

OKay okay..I think I get it...

the foot thingie means the hex movement cost for everything (1 in clear/forest) but the truck thingie is the extra paid for mechanized or armoured, yes?

So Inf in forest just pay 1 per hex but mech or arm pay 2. In mud, clear is 2 for Inf but 2+1 for mech/arm and mech/arm in forest mud would pay 2 + 2...no wonder I keep getting hung up!!!! Throw in enemy ZOC and she4eshshshshh!!!!

[pk867]

Hi,

Yes the chart is a little confusing, but the foot means MP cost for any unit for the type of terrain and supply level.

The truck icon is additional MP costs associated with vehicle type units (ie Mech's and Armor) . So in clear terrain it costs one MP / hex moving any unit through that terrain and there is no additional MP costs for vehicles. So in Rough it costs 2 MP's plus 1 MP's if the units is a Mech or Armor. So a Mech or Armor will use 3 MP / hex to move through Rough terrain, whereas INF use only 2. (fair weather) As the weather gets worse, you use more and if in ZOC you add an additional 2 MP's.

Of course clear terrain can have supply down to one if the hex is supplied by a surface combat unit and no other source available.

Hope this helps.

pk867

[_Augustus_]

Hi Blathergut,

I've tried to digest the movement chart you mention(same as the chart for 2.0 page 58?). And failed regards certain details. I'm willing to proclaim there is something more going on than what the chart in the manual says.

Fair weather: A MEC unit with MP 5 can move two forest hexes(each 1+1) in a forest for 4 MP cost. The unit can not advance 3 forest hexes for cost of 6 MPs. OK.

Winter: A MEC unit with MP 5 can move 1 forest hex(2+1) in a forest for 3 MP cost. The unit can not advance 2 forest hexes for cost of 6 MPs. OK.

Severe Winter: A MEC unit with MP 5 _can_ move 2 clear hexes(2+1 each) in clear for total of 6 MP cost. Why???

Severe Winter: A MEC unit with MP 5 _can_ move 1 forest hex(2+2) in ZOC(+2) for total of 6 MP cost. Why???

Severe Winter: A MEC unit with MP 5 _can_ move 1 forest hex(2+2) in a forest for 4 MP cost PLUS clear/city hex (2+1) for total of 7 MPs. Why??

Mud: An ARM unit with 6 MPs _can't_ advance a forest hex(2+2) and a city hex(2+1) for total of 7 MP cost. Seems bit unfair compared to the previous example.

The main menu says 1.12 CEaW and 1.07 GS. Which file is used(if any) for the movement cost and vehicle penalties anyways?

Who knows I might be missing something obvious or made mistakes with my notes,

_augustus_ //Oh and Blathergut, remember that even a MP 1 unit that is not in a contact with an enemy unit can move at least one hex regardless of MP cost calculations. Something worth minding regards partizans or units cut off from supply.

[ncali]

I think the reason for the confusion is that mech units do not pay the extra weather cost for moving in bad weather (like armour do) but do pay the extra cost for moving into bad terrain. At least, that's my understanding. It does seem right, anyway, that mech units can and should be able to move 2 hexes even in bad weather.

[pk867]

Hi,

The ZOC cost is when you move into a ZOC (i think) and not out of one (ZOC) like in most board games. Also we as humans can say well if you move this way you do not have the movement points, but the engine may allow it for some reason that we can not correct. So some movement is allowed by the engine. We can not document all instances. The chart is a guide for the player. But since movement is calculated and performed by the game engine some weird things can take place. Play with caution or is that abandon?!

pk867

[pk867]

Hi,

I also forgot to add that your MP can be reduced by supply, so if you supply level is 1 you have 1 MP. If you are adjacent to an enemy unit you may move away from said unit if the terrain allows it.

pk867

[_Augustus_]

I think the reason for the confusion is that mech units do not pay the extra weather cost for moving in bad weather (like armour do) but do pay the extra cost for moving into bad terrain. At least, that's my understanding.

AAh! That would explain it. Thanks! I think it all makes sense now

It does seem right, anyway, that mech units can and should be able to move 2 hexes even in bad weather.

I agree the MECs would be just plain dismal with only 1 hex movement in clear terrain in bad weather.

I just wish such things would be spelled out more clearly in the manual. Yes, I'm aware that the manual is writen only to mention things changed from the vanilla game and it's edited by a person using his free time for this and I appreciate the fact that there is a manual for GS at all. But this isn't the first instance where a minor alteration in the manual would make it so much clearer for a new player wanting to learn the ropes. Hell, it took me this long time and a post to the forum to learn the above. Just change the truck image to an armour image for Mud-Winter-Severe Winter weather in the chart and the chart is so much clearer.

Cheers and thanks,

_augustus_ //Btw the weather chart(page 59 or page 61) states "Range/2 rounded up" for spotting in winter time for the winterized nations. Which doesn't seem to be the case in the game play. The general.txt has values 100 and 50 for winterized and normal units reppectively(whatever that means regards the actual gameplay) So the enhanced spotting ability for winterized nations is on purpose I assume. Why not mention the real deal in the chart in the manual? Just a newbiefriendly suggestion again even if was already in the vanilla game.

[Plaid]

I guess in-game formula working with severe winter always round result to higher, because speeds are already very low. Garrison at severe winter with supply 3 would have movement of 0, if game will round it correctly.

[_Augustus_]

The ZOC cost is when you move into a ZOC (i think) and not out of one (ZOC)

No, that is not totally true. You pay +2 MPs for moving from ZOC of an enemy A to an adjacent hex that is in ZOC of an enemy B. You also pay +2 MPs for moving from ZOC of an enemy A to an adjacent hex that is in ZOC of the same enemy A. And you pay +2 MP cost if you move into hex in ZOC of two enemies from an hex not in ZOC of any enemy. The extra costs are not cumulative.

But if you _start_ your turn(Or move? Yes, there can be a difference between star of the turn and the move) not being in contact with an enemy you can move one hex regardless of the MP cost of the terrain, MPs you have or ZOCs you move into.

The MP dilemma with ZOC I presented earlier: "Severe Winter: A MEC unit with MP 5 _can_ move 1 forest hex(2+2) in ZOC(+2) for total of 6 MP cost. Why???" is explained by the answer ncali gave. MECs aren't penalized with the extra movement cost during severe winter. 2MPs for winter forrest and 2 for ZOC totaling 4 which is less than MP 5 of a MEC.

Actually to make it very clear in the manual one could you use Foot icon and Truck/Armour icon for Fair weather and Foot/Truck icon and Armour icon for other weathers in the chart. Should be very clear, yes?

The ZOC explanation would require some text probably. But even if it's vanilla game material why not inlcude it in the manual? Unless you're forbidden by contract of course.

Just my 2 cents,

_augustus_ //spent too much time figuring out the movent

[Blathergut]

The original game manual (downloadable here somewhere) was hardly a tell-all document!

[pk867]

Hi Augusta
That is a good suggestion about the icons.
I will see about changing the chart. It will be for v2.0 and if
possible we will try to update v1.06

pk867

[Peter Stauffenberg]

The leg movement shows the basic movement cost for entering that terrain. The vehicle icon shows the vehicle penalty for entering that hex. That means movement cost IN ADDITION to the leg movement cost. Armor and mech units are considered vehicles while corps and garrisons are not.

So if you look at clear terrain in fair weather you see that movement cost is 1 per hex both for leg units and vehicles.
Movement in clear terrain in mud weather is 2 per hex for leg units and (2+1 = 3) per hex for vehicles.

[Blathergut]

There have been a few curses to the mud gods in German whilst trying to invade Belgium in mud!

[_Augustus_]

The leg movement shows the basic movement cost for entering that terrain. The vehicle icon shows the vehicle penalty for entering that hex. That means movement cost IN ADDITION to the leg movement cost. Armor and mech units are considered vehicles while corps and garrisons are not.

So if you look at clear terrain in fair weather you see that movement cost is 1 per hex both for leg units and vehicles.
Movement in clear terrain in mud weather is 2 per hex for leg units and (2+1 = 3) per hex for vehicles.

If only it was this simple. But it's not. MECs and ARMs use different extra cost in bad weather.

MP 5 MEC can move two clear hexes in mud(2+1) even it should require to 6 MPs. I think MECs actually pay the MUD leg cost(2) plus vehicle extra for FAIR weather clear hex(0). Hence they can move 2 hexes in the mud for total of 4 MPs.

Another example one can test in the game for themselves. MUD forest hex is 2+2 while FAIR forest is 1+1. MP6 AMR can move 1 hex in the mud forest(cost 2+2=4). MP5 MEC can also move only one hex in the mud forest (cost 2+1=3). Next hex is a MUD clear/city 2+1. Clear/city hex in FAIR weather is 1+0. The MP6 ARM can't move mud forest(2+2) and mud city(2+1), because that would cost 7 MPS for the ARM. The MP5 MEC _can_ move the mud forest plus mud city. The mud forest costs 3 MPs for the MEC (as above) and the mud city/clear hex costs (2+0 instead of 2+1) for total of 5 MP cost. MEC could move further than an AMR in this case yet you would not come to that conclusion by using the current movement chart in the manual.

My earlier suggestion how to augment the movement cost chart is little off btw. IMHO it would be most convinient to have different columns for the extra for MEC and ARM for each of the bad weathers. OR state it very clearly that MECs always pay extra cost from the FAIR weather column.

Just my 2 cents,

_augustus_