French too good - don't play realisitcally.

[cptkremmen]

I realise that on paper the French tanks were very good but in reality they had major disadvantages.

Their one man turrets made them very difficult to command and operate in a chaotic combat environment
They did not have any radios again making control very difficult
Their crews were woefully under trained and experienced in comparison to the elite German forces

The current game does not seem to take any of that into consideration?

Would it be possible to lower morale of French tanks, give them less action points? i would think an obvious one is only allow them to fire once not twice, or at least only once if they moved....

[Acererak]

The "realism" discussion has been adressed quite a few times already, and I am afraid it´s just a matter of tastes.

In my opinion, first of all for the game to be playable and balanced (specially considering there is a MP mode) some concessions to historic realism have to be made.

That said, at the scale represented in the game, some of the things that happened in real life and that turned the balance in favor of the Axis are not possible to be represented (effect of radios for examlpe, or superior armor tactics for the germans). All in all, I think all the vehicles represented in the game behave in a more than acceptable way even from a historic and a bit more technical perspective.

But as said, Single missions need to be challenging, and MP scenarios need to be balanced for the whole game to be fun. Some of the options you suggest would probably unbalance the game dramatically in one way or the other.

My two cents.

[junk2drive]

The "realism" discussion...

...My two cents.

Well put.

[Ryben]

If we talk about realism we should throw all the Bulge campaign through the window. They were WAY many more german tanks that historically possible...

No AI can compete with a human so you had to "cheat" somehow to makes things interesting. Sometimes it gets quite weird, i find that French are behaving as Germans in BA should have but...i could live with that.

A historically correct French forces would make the game as easy as a walk in the park.

[LOGAN5]

I think the missions are very fun, better than the original campaigns.. I am only about 1/2 way through. The trick to kill french armor is to get in close use hunting, or just take your chances. From close range you start to get better percentages.

[cptkremmen]

Yes i agree that some of my suggestions would make French less effective. For game purposes you then make them cheaper and give them more units, though perhaps more infantry and guns rather than tanks.

I do agree that to a lesser degree it is a common problem in the game. In the later periods German tanks such as tiger, panther etc are very effective, as they should be but appear far more often in the game than they would be likely to.

Just my humble opinion of course.



The purpose of my post was that IF lots of people agreed with me it would give constructive feedback to SLitherine on how to change the way the French are handled. Of course if everyone disagrees with me then it will merely reinforce to slitherine that they are doing everything just fine.



Andy

[Kissaki]

I've just bought the game and haven't gotten to the French campaign yet, but it seems a bit odd to overpower French tanks for balance reasons in the single player campaign. As I recall playing Panzer General, when you're playing the Axis side, the French tanks were awfully powerful as well. Anything less than the Pz.IV would hardly dent the CharB1, and even the Pz.IV needed considerable advantage in experience in order to come out on top. This may not be so far fetched, however, when reading about various incidents. According to Wiki, a single Char.B1 destroyed 13 German panzers, all IIIs and IVs, in a frontal assault in a matter of minutes. The French tank was apparently hit 140 times, but returned home safely.

Anyway, the problem with French tanks was not so much the tanks themselves, but how they were deployed. France had pionered tank warfare in WWI, but although the technology developed nicely enough, tactics and strategy did not, and tanks were not a priority to the French. But as the player is now in command, he is not bound by historical French tactics and can use any style of command he feels like.

[Ryben]

If BA have some kind of C&C (Command & Control) it would be easier to make the French behave different.

For example, maybe units should remain close together (up to a certain distance) from the rest of your forcer or maybe some HQ unit or they would loose morale. That would reflect that units doesn´t operate alone (except commandos and such) and must keep some kind of formation.

That´s something that would make a more interesnting game and would like to see in future releases.

[junk2drive]

If BA have some kind of C&C (Command & Control) it would be easier to make the French behave different.

For example, maybe units should remain close together (up to a certain distance) from the rest of your forcer or maybe some HQ unit or they would loose morale. That would reflect that units doesn´t operate alone (except commandos and such) and must keep some kind of formation.

That´s something that would make a more interesnting game and would like to see in future releases.

We're working on it

[cptkremmen]

Well I am not in the majority....

But an appreciable minority would also like to see something done which helps model some more of the intangibles....

[Merr]

Well I am not in the majority....

But an appreciable minority would also like to see something done which helps model some more of the intangibles....

yes ... I'd like to see options on the Force Selection Screen that changes aspects of the scenario, as you pointed out in the first post.

No worries about play balance ... the scenario's default is balanced ... but giving the player an option to alter the balance would satisfy all groups, minors and majors.

[junk2drive]

Don't forget the easy button on the save/options screen.

You can change on the fly too.

[shawnt63]

I think part of the problem is that the French forces in the games as designed are far too mobile and that makes it unrealistic (depending on what unit you are trying to depict). Often on a tactical level the French did very well, set back many German units , it was operationally that they failed. Spread too thin along the entire front with no coherent use of their forces (air and armour to be more exact). The French 1st line Divisions gave as good as they got and when properly set were a match for the Germans, the 2nd line not so much but again it was at the operational level that things fell apart, even to the extent of running out of bullets or gas in some cases. The Turrets were a problem but not as much as the radio, which took away control of the forces once deployed. I think when you look at the individual units in this game, they are probably bang on, but I also feel that in some of the scenarios there is more French personnel carriers etc than you can shake a stick at. As far as playability goes I think it should be based on the scenario not the game itself. The game engine should (and does) allow to build the proper forces to give historical and ahistorical results. Frankly I don't like always fighting a game where everything is even, I like the fighting withdrawal or the exploitation thrust against superior but disorganized enemy forces.

So for me, no the French aren't over powered but we haven't yet seen a truly historical scenario either. (just my opinion )

[Obsolete]

The issue about game balancing has to be in place for on-line play doesn't seem to hold water to me. Yes French tanks were inferior, but you can always add MORE units (or specialized terrain) to their side in order to balance out this difficiency.

As for that Wikipeadia issue about the Chario taking out 13 tanks in a matter of minutes, I suppose it COULD have happened, and if so then they would seem to be totally undermined by everyone. However, some key things to remember, at least over here wiki is banned as any authorized reference by universities since its accuracy isn't exactly... how do we say this... "reliable".

The main issue I remember, is that just about all French tanks were dismantled when France surrendered since they were so horribly backwards technologically to the axis tanks. HOWEVER, Germany having immense production problems, and a lack of metals at the time did in fact save some of the chassis in order to implement some self-propelled artillery units, etc. Unfortunately the chassis simply were not up to the task even for a role such as this, and often resulted in mounted artillery that had not sufficient armour for protection.

Basically, the French chassis were inefficient for not just what it was originally designed for, but also for tasks it was diverted to. I guess this all is pointing to the fact that no matter how you look at it, the French tanks simply deserve the jokes they have been given.

Though in order to save safe for the French, one must not forget the reason those tanks were badly dated, was because of the Maginot line and the fact that they believed artillery would be proven to be what matters on the battlefield. Tanks to the French were considered a bit of a gimmick which would serve no major role on the battlefield.

[Igorputski]

Looks like the French are fine have a substantial lead 2 to 1. No changes required or needed.

[Kissaki]

The issue about game balancing has to be in place for on-line play doesn't seem to hold water to me. Yes French tanks were inferior, but you can always add MORE units (or specialized terrain) to their side in order to balance out this difficiency.

You mean French tanks were superior. What lacked on the French side was radio communication (which was also true of the Soviet side) and training. The tanks themselves were more than fine, for the most part, but there weren't enough of them, as France had chosen to downsize their tank force.

As for that Wikipeadia issue about the Chario taking out 13 tanks in a matter of minutes, I suppose it COULD have happened, and if so then they would seem to be totally undermined by everyone. However, some key things to remember, at least over here wiki is banned as any authorized reference by universities since its accuracy isn't exactly... how do we say this... "reliable".

The reason Wikipedia is banned as a reference has nothing to do with reliability (Wikipedia has time and time again shown itself to be more consistently reliable than classic encyclopedias), but because Wikipedia is not itself a source. The sources are listed within the Wikiperia articles, and those are the ones you have to use if you wish to use the information scholarly. Otherwise, it would be a matter of "Wiki says that this guy says that..."

In the case of the Char.B1 taking out 13 Panzers, the source is listed as:
Frieser, Karl-Heinz (2005) Greenwood, John T. ed. (in English) The Blitzkrieg Legend. The 1940 Campaign in the West Naval Institute Press pp. 211-212 ISBN 9781591142942

Now, that's a proper way to cite a source. And Wiki is very strict about these things. That said, always have a peek in the discussion section of Wiki articles, especially if there is any controversy involved. The best sourcing cannot guarantee full coverage from all perspectives.

The main issue I remember, is that just about all French tanks were dismantled when France surrendered since they were so horribly backwards technologically to the axis tanks. HOWEVER, Germany having immense production problems, and a lack of metals at the time did in fact save some of the chassis in order to implement some self-propelled artillery units, etc. Unfortunately the chassis simply were not up to the task even for a role such as this, and often resulted in mounted artillery that had not sufficient armour for protection.

From what I have gathered, the French tanks were slow and had an immense fuel consumption. And, of course, there is always the issue with foreign machinery that they consist of foreign parts. It would simply not be cost-effective to dedicate certain factories to making French parts and ammunition to maintain a handful of French tanks.

Basically, the French chassis were inefficient for not just what it was originally designed for, but also for tasks it was diverted to. I guess this all is pointing to the fact that no matter how you look at it, the French tanks simply deserve the jokes they have been given.

Not at all. Guderian certainly didn't think French tanks were a joke. Certainly no more of a joke than the German Tiger later on: formidable in combat, but slow and cumbersome, with an immense fuel consumption.

Though in order to save safe for the French, one must not forget the reason those tanks were badly dated, was because of the Maginot line and the fact that they believed artillery would be proven to be what matters on the battlefield. Tanks to the French were considered a bit of a gimmick which would serve no major role on the battlefield.

You can hardly blame the Maginot line. The Maginot line was another symptom of the cause, not a cause in itself. The French, like I said, had pioneered tank warfare in the Great War, but only had the experience of using tanks, and not the experience of facing them. And so tanks were seen as something very awkward and costly. The Germans, on the other hand, knew very well what it was like to face tanks, and knew what an advantage they would give in battle.

[MesaDon]

Now hopefull we are done with Wikipedia and lessons in proper citing and actualy discuss the game itself. Oh by the way ... the French lost.

[Jonesy1760]

I think they are very easy to beat..maybe not strong enough!!!

[Skanvak]

I don't see where french tank are too powerful.

The B1-Bis as 2 guns/2 gunner that compensate for the one man turret. Even Guderian (in Panzer Leader) say praized there strong armour. Except the C&C thing that does not exist yet, I don't see why they should be given disavantage that did not exist historically. When french fought they fought correctly. Guderian breakthrough was nearly never opposed by tanks (he describe only one main battle, two at most in Panzer leader) and he got lots of tanks on his side against an already desesperate situation for the French army. And he told they took severe loses that could have been reduced if they add correct gun able to penetrate the french tanks.

French was defeated on operational level (no reserve and no maneuver ability) but there was extensive research about the battle of France and they did not find failure on the tactical level. French fought as it was expected from them, it was their command level that lack the reactivity of WWI French general. In game term the player was bad, argualbly even very bad but that does not make the tool bad. Use German equipment the same way the french did and the French equipment the way the german did then you will have an even greater defeat as german tank are too weak to anti-tank weapons.