A new and improved question about my Samurai list

irondog068 · Post by **irondog068** » Wed Dec 08, 2010 4:27 pm

I have a question about my 1500 800point Samurai list Which would be better as it stands it looks like this:

6x6 Samurai with Retainers: MF/ARM/AVG/Undrilled/BW*/HW
2x6 Samurai Cav: Cav/Arm/Sup/Undrilled/BW/SW
2x6 Ashigaru with Yari: MF/Prot/AVG/Undrilled/Of Spear
4xTC

I could take 1 unit of Samurai with Retainers allied and buy 3 field fortifications (torn between doing Tate or bamboo barricade like Nagashino both look cool)

Or should I make the cavalry into 3x4 stand units and get 1 more unit of Ashigaru with Yari. But I would loose some missile and armor because I would loose 1 unit of Samurai with Retainers.

I will sit down and wait for my answer.

grahambriggs · Post by **grahambriggs** » Wed Dec 08, 2010 5:21 pm

I'd prefer the cavalry in groups of 4 myself - 6s are just so unwieldy.

The armoured MF are much better than protected IMHO for generic ply, though might not be too much use in civil wars.

spikemesq · Post by **spikemesq** » Wed Dec 08, 2010 5:22 pm

Definitely shuffle the Cav into 3x4.

I think that 6 BGs of Samurai are too many. They are pretty expensive and are somewhat crappy shooters.

That Samurai list is a bit tricky though.

IIRC you can build the army around 3x8 Samurai BGs, and get some more of the Cv/Ashi blocks.

I like the samurai in 8-packs to give them more oomph vs. shooters.

irondog068 · Post by **irondog068** » Wed Dec 08, 2010 6:33 pm

I am limited to 16 "Real Samurai"
So should I increase some of the foot Samurai to 8 bases? I have found that the Ashigaru are kind of fragile being only protected and average.

Let me rework thinks and give you guys Version 2.

Thanks

irondog068 · Post by **irondog068** » Wed Dec 08, 2010 6:47 pm

How about this:
1 FC
3 TC
5x6 Samurai MF/Arm/Avg/Undrilled/Bw*/HW
3x4 Samurai Cavalry Cav/Sup/undrilled/BW/SW
3x4 Ashigaru MF/Prot/Avg/undrilled OfSpear.

This comes to 797 points. I can only have 4 more bases of good Samurai. That would have to be cavalry because the list said foot Samurai have to be 6 bases in size. And 4 cavalry units seem a bit much as they come with a fairly weak Ashigaru unit.

christospap · Post by **christospap** » Thu Dec 09, 2010 9:05 am

Hi again,

I don't remember the values of each base/BG by heart in order to calculate, but one thing that seems wrong in this version 2 is the number of followers: I'm pretty sure you cannot take them in groups of 4 bases - I think the number is 6 to 8.

I notice that both in version 1 and version 2, you tend to keep the number of bases of Bushi and of followers the same. Is that perhaps the problem? Because you don't have to. You can have 1 BG of Bushi Cavalry of 4 bases and an accompanying BG of Followers of 6 or 8 bases. The only limitation is that the number of BGs (not bases) has to be equal.

Christos

irondog068 · Post by **irondog068** » Thu Dec 09, 2010 1:37 pm

you are correct.
I mis typed
it is 3x4 Samurai cavalry
and 3x6 Ashigaru

My question now is would I be better lowering the FC to a TC and getting some fortifcatitions to protect the 3 units of Ashigaru with Yari as I have fond these units to be fragile being olny protected and average

sadista · Post by **sadista** » Sun Dec 12, 2010 10:09 pm

How about

IC + 2 TC
10 x 6 MF Prot Avg Und Bow* HvyW
ATC
3 x 8 MF Unp Avg Und HvyW

IC for aid in the much needed terrain, shooting umbrella and CMT's for wheeling
Ally for rear support

irondog068 · Post by **irondog068** » Mon Dec 13, 2010 4:35 pm

I like the idea of all the extra missile fire as I brigade up 2 units and which gives me 6 dice of fire before I am forced to combat. But MF who are only protected get chewed up pretty easily. Plus I found 4 commanders are a must.

What I may try is 2x4 Samurai cavalry and 1x6 Foot Samurai foot with Yari. And maybe see if I can squeeze a unit of bow or convert 1 of the Samurai foot with retainers into a bow unit.

sadista · Post by **sadista** » Mon Dec 13, 2010 6:11 pm

The Heavy Weapon negates the armour differences and shooting is somewhat negated by the IC and rear support.
The cavalry are a problem in this list as it gives your opponent something to surround and cut down, unless you leave them with your foot in which case why not just use foot.

Rather than 3x8 MF in the ally I would actually take it as 4x6 bumping your BG count to 14.

The weakness of this list is open ground, mounted and skilled sword will tear a hole and turn 90 into the flanks of the other BG's.
+2 initiative is important to have a chance at some rough terrain to try and negate this.

irondog068 · Post by **irondog068** » Mon Dec 13, 2010 8:26 pm

okay how about this
1xFC
3xTC
2x4 Samurai cavalry Cav/arm/sup/bow/sword
1x6 Samurai foot MF/arm/sup/Offensive spear
3x6 Ashigaru MF/prot/avg/Offensive spear
1x6 Ashigaru MF/arm/avg/bow
4x6 Mixed Samurai MF/avg/bw*/Hw
6x Fortifications
All are undrilled

I like the armor just to keep my troops from getting torn apart by missile fire. The fortifications will help at least 2 of the Ashigaru Yari units since they are protected it will help them stay alive and I can put the bow unit behind them and fire overhead when charged.

Thoughts?

footslogger · Post by **footslogger** » Tue Dec 14, 2010 1:57 pm

When working on an army list I like to ask fairly early, "How am I going to win with this army?" And then think about it against various kinds of opponents with that in mind. How do you think you are going to win with this army (not this list, this army)? Given that, is this list going to help you do that?

grahambriggs · Post by **grahambriggs** » Tue Dec 14, 2010 2:48 pm

sadista wrote:The Heavy Weapon negates the armour differences and shooting is somewhat negated by the IC and rear support.
The cavalry are a problem in this list as it gives your opponent something to surround and cut down, unless you leave them with your foot in which case why not just use foot.

Rather than 3x8 MF in the ally I would actually take it as 4x6 bumping your BG count to 14.

The weakness of this list is open ground, mounted and skilled sword will tear a hole and turn 90 into the flanks of the other BG's.
+2 initiative is important to have a chance at some rough terrain to try and negate this.

While the protected HW troops look good, I've seen them do badly on the table. The heavy weapon is nice in principle, but the problem is what are they actually better than, frontally? Answer: nothing that they will end up fighting. Taking them as armoured will give them a plus against protected enemy. It will also be handy against nasties like protected Pike.

Protected in 6s are particularly asking for trouble. Yes an IC and rear support would help, but the IC can't be everywhere and the enemy will snipe at the end of your line. At the end of a line It's quite easy to do three hits on a protected foot unit.

A clubmate of mine took the Protected version to a "blood and gold" plus "Empire of the Dragon" comp at Britcon this year. The protected HW foot were the weak point as he came up against two Aztecs (same POAs, better quality), Pacific North West (same but bigger), Tupi (Same POA's but shooting a little better for the Tupi) and Liao - shot to pieces. The armoured Samurai spearmen did well but he regretted not making more of the heavy weapon guys armoured.

irondog068 · Post by **irondog068** » Tue Dec 14, 2010 10:38 pm

I agree about keeping as many troops as possible armored as possible.
That is why I have fortifications for 2 of the 3 protected units.

I also agree about the IC. A FC and 8 stands of cavalry should give a chance at winning the terrain.

A new and improved question about my Samurai list

A new and improved question about my Samurai list

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