Supporting LF in Mixed Units - how do they work?

[PorkSol]

Previously most of the bowmen in mixed units were MF, but in S&S some supporting LF bows showed up.
The details of these are not particularly well documented.

Questions:

a) Do the light foot take the place of the second rank of the unit? Or are they added on as a overstrength third rank (while other units just have two ranks?)

b) If they're overstrength, how much are you paying extra for the LF?

a) What exactly is the intended effect of supporting light foot bow? Because I am seeing what appear to be some inconsistencies.

i) Should they support shoot in impact?
ii) Should they deny or allow 2nd rank spear based POAs?
iii) Should they only get one shot?

- In the Hattin scenario that came with S&S the Ahdath Militia get full defensive spear POAs, but do not appear to benefit from the support shooting of the light foot in impact.

- In my Fatamid Egypt (978 - 1071) DAG list, the Siraya Spear do appear to be getting the support shooting of the light foot in impact.

- In my Fatamid Egypt (978 - 1071) DAG list the Dailami with bow get 3 shots in missile combat, while the Siraya Spear and Abid al-shira only get one shot in missile combat.

[keithmartinsmith]

a) Do the light foot take the place of the second rank of the unit? Or are they added on as a overstrength third rank (while other units just have two ranks?)
Support MF are a second rank and LF the third (if it were a TT game)

b) If they're overstrength, how much are you paying extra for the LF?
See the points costs in the help index

a) What exactly is the intended effect of supporting light foot bow? Because I am seeing what appear to be some inconsistencies.
i) Should they support shoot in impact?
They do

ii) Should they deny or allow 2nd rank spear based POAs?
LF allow, MF deny

iii) Should they only get one shot?
Yes

- In the Hattin scenario that came with S&S the Ahdath Militia get full defensive spear POAs, but do not appear to benefit from the support shooting of the light foot in impact.
- In my Fatamid Egypt (978 - 1071) DAG list, the Siraya Spear do appear to be getting the support shooting of the light foot in impact.
They have to be charged by mounted to get LF support shooting

- In my Fatamid Egypt (978 - 1071) DAG list the Dailami with bow get 3 shots in missile combat, while the Siraya Spear and Abid al-shira only get one shot in missile combat.
MF support shooting 1 shot only still - will check

[PorkSol]

Thanks!

That helps a lot.

By the way, it appears that (at least under some circumstances), the mixed unit LF support shooters will lose their impact support shots against mounted if they are in contact with enemy foot at the time they are charged by mounted.

In the Hattin scenario, if you set up an Aldath Militia to be charged by two Turcopoles (mounted), he will get a support shooting roll against both.

But if you set it up so a Spearman charges him first, and then a Turcopole charges him, he will not get his support shooting roll against the Turcopole.

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And here is a screenshot for the Dailami with bow (Impact, Sword with supporting LF archers) in the Fatamid Egypt (978 - 1071) list getting 3 shots in the missile phase.

[keithmartinsmith]

There was an error and this is fixed in 1.4.1 as follows:

Normal Shooting
LF rear rank 1 attack
MF rear rank 2 attacks

Support shooting when being charged
MF rear rank 2 attacks
LF rear rank 2 attacks when being charged by mounted otherwise zero.

Keith

[batesmotel]

There was an error and this is fixed in 1.4.1 as follows:

Normal Shooting
LF rear rank 1 attack
MF rear rank 2 attacks

Support shooting when being charged
MF rear rank 2 attacks
LF rear rank 2 attacks when being charged by mounted otherwise zero.

Keith

Hi Keith,

How are the front rank POAs affected by LF vs MF bow rear rank? In FoG TT, LF are usually a third rank so there would be two full ranks of non-missile troops for POAs where a second rank is required for the POA? LF in the third rank would only get 1 attack in support shooting and no other shooting from the third rank. So obviously the planned treatment in FoG digital is already somewhat different.

Chris

[keithmartinsmith]

FOG PC delivers the same number of attacks as a BG 2 wide and 2 deep with medium foot bow in the second rank or as a BG 2 wide and 3 deep if LF in the third rank.

Keith

[batesmotel]

FOG PC delivers the same number of attacks as a BG 2 wide and 2 deep with medium foot bow in the second rank or as a BG 2 wide and 3 deep if LF in the third rank.

Keith

LF in a thrid rank are not eligible to do any shooting except support shooting (p. 82, overhead shooting, second point). And I believe that the loss of one attack per two applies to LF for support shooting as well as otherwise in impact. So I would think that LF in the third rank should be no shooting attacks and 1 support shooting attack except against LH.

So I assume for the other combat POAs that the BG with LF is assumed to have two full ranks of its impact/combat weapons, e.g. spears.

Chris

[TheGrayMouser]

FOG PC delivers the same number of attacks as a BG 2 wide and 2 deep with medium foot bow in the second rank or as a BG 2 wide and 3 deep if LF in the third rank.

Keith

Hello, can you please expand on this? There are no "second rank" or base references in the pc game

So the question is what is the difference between the poa's between a pure defensive spear unit, and one that has medium foot support?

Looking at the poas a defensive spear would get a GROSS poa in impact and melee of a + (spear, over 50% strength and not fragmented) The others apply only to pike.....

Are you saying that a defensive spear with medium bow support doesnt get any gross poa??

[keithmartinsmith]

A unit with MF rear support bows do not get any defensive spear POA's. They still count as defensive spears while steady so chargers such as lancers do not get lance POA's. They also get the benefit of being able to shot and get extra attacks when charged.

On rear rank LF shooting we are reviewing this.

Keith

[TheGrayMouser]

A unit with MF rear support bows do not get any defensive spear POA's. They still count as defensive spears while steady so chargers such as lancers do not get lance POA's. They also get the benefit of being able to shot and get extra attacks when charged.

On rear rank LF shooting we are reviewing this.

Keith

Awsome, very clear now, thanks for the reply!

[keithmartinsmith]

Completed the review and rear rank shooting will continue as outlined above for 1.4.1.

Thanks
Keith

[batesmotel]

Completed the review and rear rank shooting will continue as outlined above for 1.4.1.

Thanks
Keith

So I assume there will now be two different attributes for mixed units with LF vs MF bows in the rear dank in the DAG, maybe (LF bow) and (MF bow) instead of (bow). In addition, I assume this will all be clearly explained in the on line help for how (LF bow) and (MF bow) work. That way players won't have to buy the TT list to figure out which type of (bow) they have and be able to understand what to expect. And there should eb a point cost, at least for (LF bow) since it clearly makes the BG better than the equivalent without the (LF bow). (MF bow) is more of a mixed blessing, at least for spear, but possibly should have a point cost as well.

As an alternative, have you considered just treating all rear rank missile support as a single type for digital FoG or else just ignoring the LF rear rank bow? Either approach would seem to be simpler to implement and explain without importing a differentiation form the TT game which really doesn't seem to make much sense in the digital version other than what seem like some what arbitrary faithfulness to the TT rules. (Bet no one thought I would ever complain about that .)

Chris

[TheGrayMouser]

I like having the 2 types, variety is good. Agree though that the help document needs to be updated

[Morbio]

I like having the 2 types, variety is good. Agree though that the help document needs to be updated

I'm beginning to think that the 'update the manual' requests are a fom of Chinese water tourture for Slitherine.... I know it is for me!