Question: can a 'step forward' trigger an intercept?

Jilu · Post by **Jilu** » Sat Dec 04, 2010 3:38 pm

EH ?

even less clear to understand now

lawrenceg · Post by **lawrenceg** » Sat Dec 04, 2010 4:50 pm

Jilu wrote:EH ?

even less clear to understand now

Is this bit clear or not?

If you number the chargers from left to right, 1234 then:

1 hits the enemy, initial line of contact.
2 steps forward and hits the enemy.
4 cannot step forward (would not end in contact with enemy)
3 cannot step forward because that would cause 4 to become isolated from the rest of the BG.

As no base steps forward into the interception zone, the enemy cannot intercept.

Jilu · Post by **Jilu** » Sat Dec 04, 2010 5:02 pm

No as the charging troops in this example seem clearly withing the Interception zone of the oposing mounted.
straith in front and within their 4 MU

lawrenceg · Post by **lawrenceg** » Sat Dec 04, 2010 6:05 pm

Jilu wrote:No as the charging troops in this example seem clearly withing the Interception zone of the oposing mounted.
straith in front and within their 4 MU

In the picture they are within the Interception zone, BUT according to the rules, they should not be, because the two bases on the right should not have stepped forward.

Jilu · Post by **Jilu** » Sat Dec 04, 2010 7:40 pm

ahhhh yes yes right of course yes right my mistake i should put my galsses on !

zoltan · Post by **zoltan** » Sat Dec 04, 2010 7:57 pm

I don't get why some think 3 can't step forward. Graham's original contribution to this post seems to be the red herring that has mudddied waters (or perhaps "queered the pitch" as far as the Aussies are concerned!) when he said:

"... If the right hand base cannot step forward, it looks like the cavalry base next to it cannot do so either (p55 3rd bullet: "a battle group cannot seperate to form multiple groups of bases. There must be at least corner to corner contact throughout")."

The original photo clearly shows that the 3rd element CAN step forward into contact WITHOUT separating or creating multiple groups of bases. So to me the photo shows a completely legal stepping forward (all charging BG bases in contact).

The argument then continues:
1. stepping forward is part of a charge
2. if a charge (including stepping forward) enters a ZOI, and interception charge is permissible
3. the knights intercept with 2 cav fighting knights and 2 cav fighting foot (from the photo the cav BG would maintain its base to base intergity)
4. more horse meat, anyone?

lawrenceg · Post by **lawrenceg** » Sat Dec 04, 2010 8:18 pm

zoltan wrote:I don't get why some think 3 can't step forward. Graham's original contribution to this post seems to be the red herring that has mudddied waters (or perhaps "queered the pitch" as far as the Aussies are concerned!) when he said:

"... If the right hand base cannot step forward, it looks like the cavalry base next to it cannot do so either (p55 3rd bullet: "a battle group cannot seperate to form multiple groups of bases. There must be at least corner to corner contact throughout")."

The original photo clearly shows that the 3rd element CAN step forward into contact WITHOUT separating or creating multiple groups of bases. So to me the photo shows a completely legal stepping forward (all charging BG bases in contact).

The argument then continues:
1. stepping forward is part of a charge
2. if a charge (including stepping forward) enters a ZOI, and interception charge is permissible
3. the knights intercept with 2 cav fighting knights and 2 cav fighting foot (from the photo the cav BG would maintain its base to base intergity)
4. more horse meat, anyone?

4 cannot step forward (would not end in contact with enemy)
3 cannot step forward because that would cause 4 to become isolated from the rest of the BG.

zoltan · Post by **zoltan** » Sat Dec 04, 2010 10:31 pm

4 cannot step forward (would not end in contact with enemy)
3 cannot step forward because that would cause 4 to become isolated from the rest of the BG.

[/quote]

OK, I think I now understand:
1. stepping forward is considered on a base by base basis
2. a base can only step forward if it would actually make contact with the enemy
3. unless a base is stepping forward, it must maintain edge to edge and corner to corner integrity with it's buddies

How do I insert some photos into a post?

lawrenceg · Post by **lawrenceg** » Sat Dec 04, 2010 10:47 pm

zoltan wrote:
OK, I think I now understand:
1. stepping forward is considered on a base by base basis
2. a base can only step forward if it would actually make contact with the enemy
3. unless a base is stepping forward, it must maintain edge to edge and corner to corner integrity with it's buddies

Not quite:

1. correct (strictly it is a file by file basis if you are more than 1 rank deep)
2. correct (strictly it is a file stepping forward if you are more than 1 rank deep and the front base must contact enemy)
3. Whether a base is stepping forward or not, it must maintain some sort of contact (could be just corner to corner) with its buddies. The whole BG must remain joined up in some sense.

zoltan · Post by **zoltan** » Sat Dec 04, 2010 11:24 pm

How do I upload photos?

batesmotel · Post by **batesmotel** » Sun Dec 05, 2010 4:29 am

zoltan wrote:How do I upload photos?

You need to post upload the photos to a photo hosting site and then link to it from here. See viewtopic.php?t=4600 for more details.

Chris

zoltan · Post by **zoltan** » Sun Dec 05, 2010 8:20 am

Photo 1 - Initial impact and base 2 steps forward taking bases 3 and 4 with it, but then everyone stops. No bases are within the knight ZOI (so no intereception charge permitted).

Photo 2 - bases 3 and 4 are NOT permitted to step forward again because in order for base 3 to make contact with the foot it would step forward more than the maximum 2 MUs permitted from the line of first contact by base 1 (page 54). Thus no cav bases enter the knights' ZOI; thus there is no intercepttion charge.

Photo 3 - after impact, the cav line up against the foot. The knights' horses drool and snort!

lawrenceg · Post by **lawrenceg** » Sun Dec 05, 2010 8:36 am

zoltan wrote:Photo 1 - Initial impact and base 2 steps forward taking bases 3 and 4 with it, but then everyone stops. No bases are within the knight ZOI (so no intereception charge permitted).

NO! THIS IS WRONG!!!!!!!!

Bases 3 and 4 do not contact enemy.

Therefore bases 3 and 4 do not step forward at all.

They stay behind, lined up with base 1.

The 2 MU rule does not come into play. I think in the original post the foot were at a shallower angle, so if 3 and 4 had been able to contact enemy without splitting the BG, they would have stepped forward. However, 4 would not have contacted enemy, and 3 would have split the BG (broken continuity), so neither could step forward.

deadtorius · Post by **deadtorius** » Sun Dec 05, 2010 4:53 pm

I believe that is what he was saying, base 2 steps forward, bases 3&4 stop and stay put on line with base 2.
Good point about the whole stepping forward has to be in contact, thats a subtle thing we have constantly missed ourselves in our games. Might have kept a few more of those nasty Romans off my back. Something else I will have to log into the brain cells.

I am not sure that the original question has been answered though, does a step forward trigger an intercept or not? Personally I would say no since I believe the charge move would be measured up to first contact, and if you're not in intercept range then thats that. Intercepts move before charges so not sure that the step forward would apply till after charge contact has been made. Unless I missed something amongst all this talk about stepping forward.

zoltan · Post by **zoltan** » Mon Dec 06, 2010 5:14 am

lawrenceg wrote:
zoltan wrote:Photo 1 - Initial impact and base 2 steps forward taking bases 3 and 4 with it, but then everyone stops. No bases are within the knight ZOI (so no intereception charge permitted).

Bases 3 and 4 do not contact enemy.
Therefore bases 3 and 4 do not step forward at all.

They stay behind, lined up with base 1.

Why don't bases 3 and 4 step forward? If base 3 stepped forward it would contact the enemy and still stay in contact with base 2.

philqw78 · Post by **philqw78** » Mon Dec 06, 2010 5:17 am

4 cannot as only bases that will contact enemy must step forwards. This means three cannot as 4 will lose contact with the BG if it does.

petedalby · Post by **petedalby** » Mon Dec 06, 2010 7:29 am

I suspect many players - including some very experienced ones - have been doing this wrongly.

Thanks for the post and the great photos to illustrate the issue.

I am not sure that the original question has been answered though, does a step forward trigger an intercept or not?

FWIW I believe a step forward could trigger an intercept.

zoltan · Post by **zoltan** » Mon Dec 06, 2010 7:46 am

OK, let's recap.

Photo 1 - cav move forward to the point of first contact with the foot.

Photo 2
- cav base 2 can step forward from the line of first contact as it will also be able to contact the foot and will not itself lose contact with cav base 1.
- cav base 4 can not step forward from the line of first contact as this would not bring it into contact with the foot
- because cav base 4 can not step forward, cav base 3 is not permitted to step forward even though it could make contact with the foot, because base 4 would be "left behind" on the line of first contact.

So back to the original question:

Q. Can an interception charge be made against bases stepping forward?
A. Yes (stepping forward is part of a charge) if the bases stepping forward come within the interception charger's range

However in the above example, no cav bases step forward into the knight's charge range of 4 MUs.

I think a few of us may have been playing this stepping forward incorrectly and allowing this:

Photo 3 - base 3 steps forward into contact with the foot taking base 4 with it. Because bases 3 and 4 have entered the knight's ZOI, the knights can declare an interception charge. If I've interpreted it correctly this seems to be the approach that arose in the original post.

nikgaukroger · Post by **nikgaukroger** » Mon Dec 06, 2010 8:03 am

petedalby wrote:I suspect many players - including some very experienced ones - have been doing this wrongly.

Indeed - I have a feeling I did just that at Warfare

Thanks for the post and the great photos to illustrate the issue.

I am not sure that the original question has been answered though, does a step forward trigger an intercept or not?
FWIW I believe a step forward could trigger an intercept.

I think it can, but only if the step forward is legal on the original target(s). Thus, in the photos above as it is not legal to step forward with bases 3 and 4 (for reasons already stated) the charge does not go into the intercept zone and thus there cannot be an intercept. If it were legal it would trigger an intercept possibility.

grahambriggs · Post by **grahambriggs** » Mon Dec 06, 2010 11:24 am

Yes i think Zoltan's last post correctly captures the situation. Per my earlier post, step forward can trigger intercept; that's fairly clear in the rules. it's just that in this case it doesn't.

The way that stepping forward operates does two things, both of which are illustrated in this example. Firstly, charges at a shallow angle can result in less bases fighting than a more direct charge. Secondly, supporting troops may need to be a bit closer than you think to give protection. In this example had the knights advanced in the previous bound to be 4MU from the cavalry an intercept would be possible.