Question: can a 'step forward' trigger an intercept?

[pptheos]

I am re-posting a question of my friend Dimitris. This question was posted in the FoG Yahoo forum and created a bit of confusion because images could not be attached.
We got somewhat contradicting answers and people told us to post it here with photos.
So here is the original question:



hi all.
i am new FOG player and i have a question.
1.) i charge with a cavalry battle group an enemy battle group of spears. my enemy has a group of knights beside. the first point of contact between my cavalry and the spears is out of the knights interception zone but as my cavalry elements steps forward to contact more spear elements they go into the knights interception zone .( but only by stepping forward ). does these steping elements that go intoi the ZOI of knights give the knights the option to intercept my charge?
thx in advance
dimitris

and the photos:

1. Initial touch:


2. Step Forward


ps. These are not spears and knights but i hope you get the picture

[expendablecinc]

I am re-posting a question of my friend Dimitris. This question was posted in the FoG Yahoo forum and created a bit of confusion because images could not be attached.
We got somewhat contradicting answers and people told us to post it here with photos.
So here is the original question:



in short - Yes!

You can intercept if the original chargers woudl enter your interception zone even if only by stepping forwards. The picture in the rulebook has this example.

anthony

hi all.
i am new FOG player and i have a question.
1.) i charge with a cavalry battle group an enemy battle group of spears. my enemy has a group of knights beside. the first point of contact between my cavalry and the spears is out of the knights interception zone but as my cavalry elements steps forward to contact more spear elements they go into the knights interception zone .( but only by stepping forward ). does these steping elements that go intoi the ZOI of knights give the knights the option to intercept my charge?
thx in advance
dimitris

and the photos:

1. Initial touch:


2. Step Forward


ps. These are not spears and knights but i hope you get the picture

[philqw78]

Yes it will trigger an intercept. And since a wheel to avoid the intercept would result in less bases in contact there is not much choice.. Looking at the photo's I think your cav are in for a bashing anyway, just by the foot.

[grahambriggs]

Hmm. I'm not so sure.

The right hand cavalry base should not have stepped forwards (p55 first bullet: "every stepped forward front rank base must end in contact with enemy"). If the right hand base cannot step forward, it looks like the cavalry base next to it cannot do so either (p55 3rd bullet: "a battle group cannot seperate to form multiple groups of bases. There must be at least corner to corner contact throughout").

So, I think the left hand cavalry base contacts, the base next to it steps forward. The other two bases do not step forward, and so it appears that no base enters the intercept zone.

If the charge was at a slightly different angle, then the third base would step forward and the intercept charge could occur.

[expendablecinc]

Hmm. I'm not so sure.

The right hand cavalry base should not have stepped forwards (p55 first bullet: "every stepped forward front rank base must end in contact with enemy"). If the right hand base cannot step forward, it looks like the cavalry base next to it cannot do so either (p55 3rd bullet: "a battle group cannot seperate to form multiple groups of bases. There must be at least corner to corner contact throughout").

So, I think the left hand cavalry base contacts, the base next to it steps forward. The other two bases do not step forward, and so it appears that no base enters the intercept zone.

If the charge was at a slightly different angle, then the third base would step forward and the intercept charge could occur.

True. Although it woudl be good if it wasnt and tagalong wings could step forward with buddies

[kevinj]

The right hand cavalry base should not have stepped forwards (p55 first bullet: "every stepped forward front rank base must end in contact with enemy"). If the right hand base cannot step forward, it looks like the cavalry base next to it cannot do so either (p55 3rd bullet: "a battle group cannot seperate to form multiple groups of bases. There must be at least corner to corner contact throughout").

So, I think the left hand cavalry base contacts, the base next to it steps forward. The other two bases do not step forward, and so it appears that no base enters the intercept zone.

Could the 3rd base from the left step not forward into contact, leaving the 4th where it is? It would appear that this would not separate the batlle group.

[Polkovnik]

The right hand cavalry base should not have stepped forwards (p55 first bullet: "every stepped forward front rank base must end in contact with enemy"). If the right hand base cannot step forward, it looks like the cavalry base next to it cannot do so either (p55 3rd bullet: "a battle group cannot seperate to form multiple groups of bases. There must be at least corner to corner contact throughout").
.

That's a new one for me. I would have thought the step forward would have took place as in the diagram, with bases tagging along with stepped forward bases next to them (and only stepping further forward if the contact the enemy).
You learn something new every day.

[batesmotel]

The right hand cavalry base should not have stepped forwards (p55 first bullet: "every stepped forward front rank base must end in contact with enemy"). If the right hand base cannot step forward, it looks like the cavalry base next to it cannot do so either (p55 3rd bullet: "a battle group cannot seperate to form multiple groups of bases. There must be at least corner to corner contact throughout").

So, I think the left hand cavalry base contacts, the base next to it steps forward. The other two bases do not step forward, and so it appears that no base enters the intercept zone.

Could the 3rd base from the left step not forward into contact, leaving the 4th where it is? It would appear that this would not separate the batlle group.

No. The fourth base would have to be on line with the left most base if it remained in position and that would clearly leave it out of contact with the third base after it had stepped forward.

Chris

[peteratjet]

Hmm. I'm not so sure.

The right hand cavalry base should not have stepped forwards (p55 first bullet: "every stepped forward front rank base must end in contact with enemy"). If the right hand base cannot step forward, it looks like the cavalry base next to it cannot do so either (p55 3rd bullet: "a battle group cannot seperate to form multiple groups of bases. There must be at least corner to corner contact throughout").

It's news to me too. However, either way, that has no bearing on the original question.

The intercept occurs before the charge, and this would put the intercepting battegroup a smidgeon away from the line of initial contact, as shown in the diagram. The two left hand bases of the charging battlegroup would still contact the original target, with the second base stepping forward. The two right hand bases would all step forward and contact the interceptors.

I am still not convinced that a step forward really can trigger an intercept. The diagram in the rulebook does ~not~ show this happening. It demonstrates the point in the rules that a potential step forward can make a battlegroup a target of a charge.

[hazelbark]

The rules state something like the intercept must cross the path of the charge.

So the technical question "does the path include the step forward distance"

I think the answer is actually yes.
A path is not a distance its a direction or angle in game terms.
If the intercepting force had been close enough to be contacted by the step forward it would be a legal chrage target and could not intercept. So the in some definiations includes stepping forward.

I can see it being disallowed. But the mechanics of the intercept are such taht it never (except as a flank) contacts the charging unit. It mearely is getting in the way. In this case it is doing jsut that.

[lawrenceg]

The rules state something like the intercept must cross the path of the charge.

So the technical question "does the path include the step forward distance"

I think the answer is actually yes.
A path is not a distance its a direction or angle in game terms.
If the intercepting force had been close enough to be contacted by the step forward it would be a legal chrage target and could not intercept. So the in some definiations includes stepping forward.

I can see it being disallowed. But the mechanics of the intercept are such taht it never (except as a flank) contacts the charging unit. It mearely is getting in the way. In this case it is doing jsut that.

There is also the issue of whether intercepting to a position that would then be stepped forward into is legitimate if the chargers would not otherwise have stepped forward.

Looks as though some clarification in v2.0 would be desirable.

[peteratjet]

... and this whole thread belongs in the rules query section

[peterrjohnston]

It does indeed, and now it is.

[grahambriggs]

The rules state something like the intercept must cross the path of the charge.

So the technical question "does the path include the step forward distance"

I think the answer is actually yes.
A path is not a distance its a direction or angle in game terms.
If the intercepting force had been close enough to be contacted by the step forward it would be a legal chrage target and could not intercept. So the in some definiations includes stepping forward.

I can see it being disallowed. But the mechanics of the intercept are such taht it never (except as a flank) contacts the charging unit. It mearely is getting in the way. In this case it is doing jsut that.

There is also the issue of whether intercepting to a position that would then be stepped forward into is legitimate if the chargers would not otherwise have stepped forward.

Looks as though some clarification in v2.0 would be desirable.

It seems clear enough to me.

"If an enemy battle group attempts to charge through the ZOI of a battle group...that battle group has the option of making an interception charge on the chargers" (p62)

So the charging BG has to make a charge that at least enters the ZOI rectangle to allow an intercept.

It's clear that the path of the charge does include any stepping forward that would occur in the charge as declared. e.g page 52 on charge declarations specifically says a BG is a target if the charge would contact them "even if it can only be contacted by stepping forward".

However in this case, the stepping forward does not enter the interception zone (as only one base steps forward).

The rules don't allow you to intercept such that the enemy can step forwards into you; they have to actually charge through your ZOI.

This seems clear and also consistent with the spirit of interception charges, "This mechanism allows you to cover flanks and protect nearby friendly troops" - p62. An intercept charge in this situation would not protect the infantry from the enemy charge - two bases are going to hit them anyway.

[hazelbark]

"If an enemy battle group attempts to charge through the ZOI of a battle group...that battle group has the option of making an interception charge on the chargers" (p62)

So the charging BG has to make a charge that at least enters the ZOI rectangle to allow an intercept.

That's what I get from trying to pull rules from memory. Need to keep a rule book at work.

[gozerius]

Don't blame yourself. At first glance, even with the rulebook in front of me it looked perfectly legal. The devil is in the details.

[ShrubMiK]

Is the conclusion of this, as I think it to be, that the position as shown in the picture is incorrect - only 2 bases should contact, #3 should not...

That's not the way I understood it to work, but I can see it depends on exactly what "stepping forward" is assumed to mean. i.e. from the original BG front line at initial point of impact, or as compared to neighbouring base (which was my supposition). I don't have my rules available to look at that right now.

[BillMc]

Yea, I am a bit confused at this point as well.

I understand and agree with what Briggs is saying, but the situation in the picture does not appear to be what he is describing.

Looking at the last picture in the sequence, the situation shows that two elements of the charging BG have stepped forward into the original target of the charge, hitting seperate elements of the opponent BG, have\ing maintained own element to element contact, and having not exceeded the 2 inch rule. In doing this they have come into the range of the 4 inch intercept charge (it even looks like they came into range after only one stepped forward) of the opposing Cavalry/Knights thereby allowing an intercept charge.

It appears that the intercept charge would then change the situation so that the result would be two elements of the original charging BG would contact the original intended target; while the other two elements would now be in contact with two elements of the intercepting BG.

Unless; what your saying is that since the 4th element in line of the original charging BG does not make contact after stepping forward along with the line, then no step forward can take place and the impact phase is just one element against one element? (p55 first bullet: "every stepped forward front rank base must end in contact with enemy")


Thanks


Bill

[Jilu]

does the rule not say that you can intercept ennemy chargers when they enter the Interception zone???

[lawrenceg]

Yea, I am a bit confused at this point as well.

Unless; what your saying is that since the 4th element in line of the original charging BG does not make contact after stepping forward along with the line, then no step forward can take place and the impact phase is just one element against one element? (p55 first bullet: "every stepped forward front rank base must end in contact with enemy")


Thanks


Bill

That is pretty much what he is saying.

If you number the chargers from left to right, 1234 then:

1 hits the enemy, initial line of contact.
2 steps forward and hits the enemy.
4 cannot step forward (would not end in contact with enemy)
3 cannot step forward because that would cause 4 to become isolated from the rest of the BG.

As no base steps forward into the interception zone, the enemy cannot intercept.

If there was another base, 5, behind 3, then 3 could step forward because continuity with 4 would be maintained through 5. Then 3 would be inthe interception zone, so the intercept would be allowed. If the intercept took place, then 4 would step forward into contact with the interceptors.