Japanese list

[spring]

Hi all, amongst several painting projects, i've got a good stock of 2dragons minis that i want to start painting.

I know the period covered by the Renaissance list is roughly Sengoku and Monoyama, as i am far from being
a specialist in this period i'm wondering whether the arquebus infantry will ever be part of something similar to
the European pike and shot units?

I don't want anyone to brake any NDA but am also concerned about basing foot samurai and ashigaru spear/pike will
there be option of both medium and heavy foot for both of those troops?

[spring]

hum... well...ok, going to wait for the list then^^

[mellis1644]

I have no more insight than you, but maybe look at the FoG:AM for hints as well as other rules - such as DBR. I suspect ashigaru with arquebus may be dedicated MF units. They likely would have a high level of optional defensive works as well. Some combination spear/pole arm and arquebus blocks may be possible but I don't think they had the same type of combined arms units as in Western Europe, so I suspect they won't get much added benefit from them.

That seems to fit better with my VERY limited knowledge of this period.

[rbodleyscott]

I know the period covered by the Renaissance list is roughly Sengoku and Monoyama, as i am far from being
a specialist in this period i'm wondering whether the arquebus infantry will ever be part of something similar to
the European pike and shot units?

A case was made for this, but we felt that those with other viewpoints might see this as an outrageous travesty. Hence no.

[spring]

maybe look at the FoG:AM for hints as well as other rules - such as DBR

Yup that's what i usually do using Gush too

A case was made for this, but we felt that those with other viewpoints might see this as an outrageous travesty.

Fair enough, thank you.

[timmy1]

Richard

I have to say I disagree with you. I will be very interested in the evidence that there were never any mixed foot BG in this period. It may well be that I am misreading the sources but I don't think so. I accept that they might not have been initially widespread but they do seem to me to have been a response to charging cavalry that became more common.

[irondog068]

Ahhh,
Finally a proper use for all those Perry Samurai.
This is a guide line for armies from say 1550 to 1600:

Ashigaru: Either Yari (long spear pike in size but not formed in western pike blocks). Teppo (matchlock armed) or Yumi. The closer you get to 1600 the less bow, more matchlock.

Samurai: Yari. Or mounted with Yari. Samurai fought more and more on foot. Also by 1600 Samurai could be armed with teppo but rare. Also rare was Samurai using bow except around 1550.

Armor: All Ashigaru would be armored Samurai heavier armor. A unit of Samurai could be extra heavy armor to show the few that were wearing "bullet proof" armor. I think the Diaymo Oda had both Samurai and Ashigaru in "Bullet proof" armor.

Easy ratios are 1/3 Ashigaru with yari (offensive spear, armored), 1/3 Ashigaru with teppo (musket, armored maybe a bow unit), Samurai Yari (offensive spear, armored, determined). Maybe 1 or 2 mounted and 1 unit as elite (hatamato)
Since this period covered such a wide range and Diaymos had different organizations there are at least 50 count them 50 ways to organize them. Plus you have Ikko Ikki. And please dod not ask "What about Ronin or Ninja"

Irondog

Irondog

[nosher]

Hi, realise i am a latecomer to the discussion but can I ask which army list book will cover the samurai? It really isn't that claer from the promtional material. Thanks in advance

[nosher]

not to worry - found my own answer

[beausant]

Will the Samurai be Medium or Heavy Foot? Same for the armored Ashigaru with yari?

[sergeis64]

Japanese list is a bit of a conundrum- BUT we can follow troop and weapon classifications and pick up some clues. It seems that Samurai and yari armed ashigaru should be classified as warriors- since they do not qualify as medium or heavy foot. It is possible to see samurai as warriors, superior, heavily armored, impact foot, swordsmen, ashigaru as warriors, average, armored, impact foot, swordsmen. Teppo would have to be armored, MF, average, musket. Mtd samurai with yari should be cav, heavily armored, superior, impact mtd, swordsmen... There should be plenty of FF available. Classification as warriors makes Japanese vulnerable to mtd in the open- oh well, they did largely fought in rough terrain and when in the open vs mtd erected FF ( Nagashino?) Certainly as warriors they have a very high rate of movement and good rough terrain capabilities. I do not see teppo as a dominant arm in the army- rather yari armed ashigaru, with teppo at about 1/2 of them, samurai at about 2/3 and cavalry at 1/2 ratios. Despite the spear length yari- and for Oda Nobunaga's ashigaru- pike length, I do not see them fighting as solid block of pike or spearmen- rather as individuals... There should be also provisions for Ikko-Ikki, warrior monks and ronin. As a troop even ninja took field a couple of times- assisting Ii troops in the fog, BUT adding them as some superior skirmishers might cause FOG-R authors ire, so I will withhold those

[timmy1]

Sergeis

Current thinking for the Teppo is that these were Arquebus rather than Musket. Other than that what you say may well turn out to be the case.

I doubt that 2 battles using small numbers of ninja will qualify for an army list but I might be wrong.

[sergeis64]

Yep- arquebus is likely, Ninja was just a pun on my part...

[nikgaukroger]

Both samurai and ashigaru will be Spearmen if armed with yari.

[sergeis64]

Thanks, Nik!
I was mostly guided by the wording in the rules- so spearmen seemed to be more of densely packed troops.
Classification as spearmen actually makes them quite resistant to cavalry in the open... I wonder if Ikko-Ikki is classified as superior mob, with heavy weapons or spearmen and some even armored?

[rbodleyscott]

I wonder if Ikko-Ikki is classified as superior mob, with heavy weapons or spearmen and some even armored?

Mostly Superior Unarmoured Warriors, Heavy Weapon.

[rbodleyscott]

I was mostly guided by the wording in the rules- so spearmen seemed to be more of densely packed troops.

Classification as Warriors (or Medium Foot for later Ashigaru) takes care of that issue.

[irondog068]

So are telling me that all the Ikko Ikki would be unarmoured? Anyone read anything on the Ikko Ikki? You should have a option to make some units as good as Samurai since some Samurai joined there ranks. Please read some of Trumbells book before this monk list becomes as broken as the one in FOG

[nikgaukroger]

So are telling me that all the Ikko Ikki would be unarmoured? Anyone read anything on the Ikko Ikki? You should have a option to make some units as good as Samurai since some Samurai joined there ranks. Please read some of Trumbells book before this monk list becomes as broken as the one in FOG

"Mostly" - such an important word.

[rbodleyscott]

So are telling me that all the Ikko Ikki would be unarmoured? Anyone read anything on the Ikko Ikki? You should have a option to make some units as good as Samurai since some Samurai joined there ranks. Please read some of Trumbells book before this monk list becomes as broken as the one in FOG

As Nik says, I did say mostly unarmoured.